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by steve1 on 09 February 2008 - 11:02
Hi
I am new to this forum and i notice a lot is talked about the grading of Hips for Breeding purposes
But i cannot see any posts or results of elbow valuations, Do you Guys on this forum not think the Elbow rating to be as an important factor as Hips when it comes down to breeding with a G.S Dog
Opinions would be very welcome
Steve1
by Bob-O on 09 February 2008 - 13:02
Steve, elbow ratings are at least as important as hips, but you obviously are aware of that. I guess we pay more attention to hips for the reason (a) that is where the attention was focused more than fourty (40) years ago (b) the elbow is a more complex joint in some ways and harder for most of us to interpret (c) when this database was created it was mainly for the European dogs who for the most part did not have elbow examinations (d) the S.V. has only recently required elbow examinations for admission to the breed book.
I do not remember when the O.F.A. began to offer elbow examinations, but it was several years ago. All of my dogs are examined, and either have an O.F.A. rating of Normal or Level 1 DJD. I have not used the S.V. as an agency for elbow examination as I have for hips.
Which brings something to mind. I have thought for some time to ask Oli to place a section in the dog registration page so that one can add the dog's elbow ratings, especially since this is now required by the S.V.. But before I ask, I need to provide some information of my own such as the various grades by each agency. I am well aware of the grade ratings by the O.F.A. and the S.V. but cannot speak about others such as the B.V.A. and the F.C.I.. As time allows I can find this information before I ask the question.
There is not yet a ZW score associated with elbows, as the S.V. has but two (2) years of data, and I would guess that it will take at least eight (8) more years before they have enough data to apply a ZW score. I am also not aware of how the S.V. elbow scoring system compares to that of the O.F.A.; i.e. how broad is the range of "a" Normal when applied to elbows? But that is my own curiousity-nothing more.
Regards,
Bob-O
by Bob-O on 09 February 2008 - 14:02
Steve, et al, I did a bit of research a few minutes ago and added the systems of the B.V.A. and F.C.I. to a file I already had, and I will send this to Oli with my request. Here are the scoring systems:
B.V.A. Elbow Grade Description
0
1 Mild ED
2 Moderate ED
3 Severe ED
O.F.A. Elbow Grade Description
Level 1 Mild ED
Level 2 Moderate ED
Level 3 Severe ED
S.V. Elbow Grade Description
“a”1
“a”2 fast
“a”3 noch Zugelassen
“a”4 mittlere Ellenbogendysplasie
“a“5 schwere Ellenbogendysplasie
”a”6 Ausland
by Silbersee on 09 February 2008 - 14:02
Steve,
if you mean that there is no place under the "Register a GSD" function for the elbow certification, you are correct. The reason must be that back when Oli created this database, the SV did not require the dogs to be screened for ED which now has been changed. Maybe, when Oli finds the time, he could add that feature. Meanwhile, I am just happy that this database exists.
Chris
by Bob-O on 09 February 2008 - 14:02
Chris, I think that is part of what Steve means in his post. I just sent an IM to Oli and asked for this feature to be added in the future. Steve is correct when he states that we do not discuss elbow quality here very much, but I think we have noticed that it is starting to gather attention as I see more posts about it.
By the way, the text I appended for the F.C.I. did not make it on that last post of mine, so here it is:
F.C.I. Elbow Grade Description
A1 Excellent
A2 Good
B1 Fair
B2 Marginal dysplasia
C1 Mild dysplasia
C2 Mild to moderate dysplasia1
D1 Moderate dysplasia
D2 Moderate to severe dysplasia
E1 Severe dysplasia
E2 Very severe dysplasia
Regards,
Bob-O
by steve1 on 09 February 2008 - 14:02
Thanks Guys, The reason why i am thuis interested is that my 14 month old G.S Pup was X-Rayed by a German Vet for his Hips and Elbows
I am an Englishman living in Belgium and the Vet i took him too was excellent in his taking of Joints etc
However due to my not understanding the procude over here i did not take the correct Pedigree details with me and this delayed things some what
I now have his Elbow results and it came as a Shock they are Mittlere ED then Verdacht Auf FRPLI
Arthrosegrad 2
For hisHips i do not have not results yet owing to the Pedigree coming back from the Vet who took and Signed it then i had to send it off to the SV
The Vet who took the X-Rays said in his opinion he gave the Elbows the second rating, but they came back as you see above, i asked him what he thought and he said they had been very harsh with there diagnose of his Elbows, and he thought them better but he does not have the say
As for the HIps this Vet gave him an A but i dread to think what the result will be when it comes back
Can i have his Hips and Elbows X-Rayed again in Belgium for an offical rating in a few months time or do the German results stand for the Dogs lifetime
He is a very promising Schutzund Dog, and it seems such a shame, of course we will all think the same of our dogs i suppose, but his front legs seem to be very sound as we get no problems at this time
Steve1
by Silbersee on 09 February 2008 - 15:02
Bob-O, I know these definitions. Our posts crossed (written at the same time). I would have worded mine differently, had I read yours before replying. As an owner/administrator of a GSD forum myself, I know how much work goes into maintaining it and at the same time trying to reply to requests. Hence my wording!
Steve, I am so sorry for your disappointment and wish you the best of luck with your dog! Of course, he is not a breeding prospect anymore, but if he is in no pain, I don't see any reason why your could not do dog sports with him.
Have a good weekend and best regards,
Chris
by Q Man on 09 February 2008 - 17:02
For many years now I have x-rayed all my German Shepherds and also all my working dogs...but I have not only done Hips...Elbows....but also Spines...Maybe someday they will also look into this possibility in the future...
~Bob~
by steve1 on 09 February 2008 - 18:02
Does anyone know if i can have the Pup X-Rayed by a Belgian Vet and sent off to the Belgian authoties for evaluatiion on his Elbows and of course his Hips when i get the result back
Why i ask this is because of the suprise and comment of the Vet who took the photos saying he thought the Dog had been treated Harshly in the pronosis of his Elbows
I am not clutching at straws so to speak, and i could accept the results except for the comments of the Vet who took the Photos
I have heard in England you can only have them done once. But he was X-Rayed in Germany,
and i now want to go to a Belgian Vet and see what the Belgians results are, is this possible and legal
Steve1
by sueincc on 09 February 2008 - 23:02
Many times vets are not expert at reading elbow xrays, especially the sublties of the different grades, unless radiographs are their specialty. If you have copies of the films, you could always ask for a 2nd opinion from a specialist, then go from there.
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