question on a problem - Page 1

I have a something i would like opions on from others. My info is limited so i can give only facts i know. I have a puppy buyer contact me about this

Pup is sold at 3 months alll is well and doing great. 6 1/2 months dog goes into heat and when she is caught peeing on th floor she is verbaly scolded. then taken to kennel. Next time day or two later she does this and when verbaly scolded she runs to a corner of the room and then she is taken to the kennel agian.

I get a call and she is peeing in the house and running to the corner and is now baring her teeth at her owner when he comes to take her to the kennel. Not sure what happened after that.

after the heat she is spayed and seens to be ok.

now she is a year and a half old.

Now the other day she was outside and did pee and poop. But she comes inside and pees again and when he yells BAD she then takes off to the corner and growls and shows teeth again. He puts her leash on and she bites through the leash and brakes 2 teeth off and poops and pees all over and then goes running through the house.

Goes outside and will not come in , does not have a fance, so he goes to get her and she bites through a glove and gets his hand .

The owner is very upset and bring the dog to me so that i see what is going on.. I have not seen this dog since she left at 3 months. I am very upset about this.

I would like to hear what other think about this and if anyone has any thaughts. As she was a happy normal pup when she left here. thanks

If it were my dog I would have the vet take a direct urine sample and check for urinary tract infection.  A urinary tract infection can change a dog's behavior.  Also do a very complete stool analysis (with flotation) for parasites. One would have to do a behavior analysis of the owner and dog' interaction to hypothesize the causes.  I am always a bit skeptical of someone who doesn't have a fenced in area to let their GSD outside to exercise in and do it's business. Unless this GSD has a health issue, or is a spook/fear biter type which should have shown as a young puppy before your sold her, I would expect that the owner is not meeting the dog's basic needs for socialization, love and attention, and may be too negative to the dog, or perhaps someone, maybe even another family member, is hitting or kicking the dog and/or yelling at it.

I don't know much about showing, Training for Schutzhund...

But I do know this. There is more to theis than the person who bought Your Pup is saying. No way I believe

Your Pup is baring Teeth, Biting the hand that feeds without a good reason. May be they did more than verbally scold?

A German Shepherd is a Lyal Loving animal, that would die before they would allow harm to come to someone they love...

Mine would for certain.

Do You know this person well? Sounds to me like they have raised their hand to her in a violent way.

I would bet on it.

I know that the stool sample is neg because i did speek to the vet  yesterday about that . I will prob have UA done on her as soon as i get her here.. However I do not think this is the casue becasue she seems to go though spells of this type of problems that has escalated ...  I do not think that he has mistreated this dog or given her more than a swat for peeing in the house and seems to be totaly random with the accendents inside. He said that today she is acting happy an normal and all is fine.. He has 3 acers and i do know he plays with her and takes her out alot as he works from home. He keeps saying that 99% of the time she is perfect and not problems, then just some random pee inside will casue this to happen.

I will find out more when she gets here.

This sounds to me like seizure related behavior. Though more common than most people know, it presents differently than the typical seizure behavior where a person or animal thrashes, and such. Often times a seizure causes an electrical current in the brain that affects the dog in a manner that triggers aggressive behavior. This is also common in humans, and rarely correctly diagnosed.  Once the "incident" occurs and the dog recovers, usually back to normal in a quick period of time, all is fine until the next time the seizure activity occurs. I would look closely at this as a possibility if there isn't a UTI.

In regard to the seizures, often times, owners do not realize that it was a seizure, because they put the dog in confinement after the incident, and typically a dog relaxes in that environment and usually sleeps. I first encountered this "syndrome" in humans when working in a state hospital. This was over 20 years ago, and then it was rarely ever diagnosed correctly. I have encountered this "syndrome" in dogs. It is often compared to the "cocker rage" which presents similarly.

I would ask the owner how the dog behaves once in a crate, or kenneled. Is there a clear pattern of escalating aggression during these behavioral incidents?

Just my 2 cents.

Does this behavior only occur when the dog thinks its in trouble?   Or is it brought on by the act of peeing indoors?

Just from your post it sounds like fear, but it could also be something going on in the dogs mind.  I wouldn't use the word sezure ,  maybe psychotic?   It doesnt happen often enough to be something defective in the mind of the dog.

It seems to be driven by behavior or environment.  I'm not saying the dogs been beaten, but it sounds like it fears something. 

Whatever the problem I dont think you had anything to do with it as the breeder, unless litter mates of this dog have similar problems.

JMO

sounds like a seizure

Two Moons,

Seizures can be and are triggered by a mirade of different stimuli, and food additives, in both humans and canine. Like with humans, loss of bladder is very common with grand mal seizures. The loss of bladder, paired with the corner response is very typical of seizure behavior with that particular type of brain "charge" as this relates to aggressive behavior linked with seizures.

I have personal knowledge of a german shepherd whose stimuli for seizure activity was the sound of the doorbell and a lab whose trigger occured when the family watched TV in the dark and the colors on the tv changed quickly.

The dogs fear response, is actually part of the seizure behavior. Usually occuring as the seizure unwinds. Humans who have this disorder which results in rage or aggressive behavior, have stated that they are in a semi concious state and different emotional responses are triggered as the seizure begins to subside. They know on some level what they are doing, but they cannot control the electric current that signals and stimulates the aggressive behavior in the brain.

I am not saying this is what this dog has, but I would definitely look into it as a possiblity, again, if a UTI is not the cause.

DeesWolf,

I am sure you know what your talking about, I on the other hand do not.

Its sad if this is the cause of this dogs behavior.    If a human had these sezures and became violent you know were they would be.    What happens to dogs?   Are they medicated?  Can they get better?   Are they put down?

I also know how hard it is to really know or understand a problem from a post on a message board.

I do know I have seen dogs ruined by how someone handled them and it did sound like the dog feared correction.

Like I said its only second hand info on a message board.  And except for being concerned I dont see any reason for weberhaus to feel responcable.    Unless its happened with other pups.

Weberhaus, Are you taking the dog ?

just curious, maybe you'll keep us informed after you see the dog.

best wish's

Two Moons,

I have seen chemical therapy work wonders for both humans and dogs in regard to aggressive seizures. Lamictal (anti seizure medication) has done well for some dogs, in very small doses. In both humans and dogs the drug therapy standard is not pheno, but usually carbamazinpine(aka tegretol). This of course requires CBC panels due to liver issues. Like with any seizure, finding the right dosage and maintaining theraputic levels is the most difficult part, after diagnosis.

The dogs, that I know of that have been euthanized for this disorder, were usually the smaller breeds. Papillions, terriers, and poms. The cases I am familiar with, the dosage couldn't be regulated, and the danger of the chemicals affecting the liver far out weighed the success. I did read some time ago of an isolated case of this also occuring in a race horse. I don't remember the particulars. However, someone with more knowledge of horses might have more input.

The GSD and the lab I mentioned earlier, both live happy productive lives. The medication works for them,  their owners made environmental changes and are always mindful of stimulants that could trigger an "episode".