Whining/Etc. During Protection Work. - Page 1

I want to get some views on this. My own boy is currently training for his sch 1 and we have a very hard time getting him to calm down with anyone/a sleeve on the field. We're training out of it right now.

But, what do you think when you see an extremely whiny/growly/vocal dog on the protection field? I have my own views, but I would like to see some other, more professional opinions on this.

-Emily.

Hi Emily,

Glad to hear you are working hard towards your SCH I.  Good girl and best of luck to you.  I'm no professional by any means but I do tend to listen to people's views when they are trying to problem solve.  Sounds like your boy is very excited and keyed up.  He's still young yes?  Has a lot of prey drive??  It may take some time to work through this but it's fixable, don't sweat it he'll eventually work through this.  I hoped to hear some of the more experienced sport folks respond to this one also.  I'm interested in their views on how to "fix" this issue.  Hopefully someone will surface.

Hello Myg....., like most training questions it is very difficult to provide an informed opinion without seeing the situation in person/video (from start to finish).You should also include dogs age, how long you have owned and trained the dog, pedigree info can be beneficial as well.

"We're training out of it right now".  Have no idea what you mean by this.

"extremely whiny/growly/vocal dog on the protection field".  Here is my shot in the dark.   What we look for in schutzhund is a calm, full grip.  Is the sleeve deep in the dogs mouth or is he holding it with just his front teeth?  Does the dog grip and hold or mouthy (regrips and does not hold firmly)?  What is your helper doing when the dog is on the sleeve?  What is your helper doing with the whip or padded stick while the dog is on the sleeve?

With a vocal dog on the sleeve, I believe the helper must be calm and neutral.  Vocality can be a very good indicater of stress.  This stress could be an indicater of a nerve issue.  The growling is also a sign of a lack of confidence and possible nerve issue. This type of dog should not be worked with a lot, if any whip action.  When the dog is on the sleeve the helper must stay calm and neutral. 

Does your dog out?  Something tells me he may not do that very well.  His stress can be coming from his thinking he will not get the sleeve back.  Maybe if you provide more information others may chime in.

Kyle

Kyle-  Could it be the dog is being overloaded?  Feeling too much pressure?  If I remember right Emily's dog is not quite 2 yet or not much older than 2.  She's only 15 years old and very dedicated to her training so if you can help her out on this one I'm sure she'd appreciate the input.  I'm working my first pup currently so it's all new to me and I'm interested in learning some things myself.  My other 2 dogs were already titled when I got them so this is quite a challenge for me. lol

Hi there,  It very well could be that the dog is overloaded.  But may I say how awesome I think it is that a 15 year old is out doing schutzhund!  Way to go and keep it up!

I'd rather have a dog that can overload than one that has no drive for the work.  This is a young dog and really just coming into his own.  Problems with dogs that are high prey drive and load easily is that they can start to challenge the handlers rank.  If this is the situation I hope you are training with folks that are ready to deal with this situation because the handler must win at all times.

The last dog I worked that had this whiney issue was also challenging the handler for the alpha spot.  So there was conflict toward the helper and then with the handler.  The out was also an issue.  We tied the dog out on a pole with a line that was maybe 6 feet long. I gave the dog a quick run by bite and let her hold on and called the handler up to the dog, calmly she took the dog in her arms and let the dog hold the sleeve as long as she wanted.  When the grip loosens or gets sloppy, she would tell the dog to platz, then out.  all of this is done very calmly.  The sleeve is picked up and handed to the helper while the dog is still in a platz.  We are working on control here.  You carry the sleeve to the helper because if you kick it you are activating the dogs prey drive,  As explained earlier the dog is not thinking while working (whining, growling).

I should have said this ealier but we are trying to teach the dog a clean and thinking sit and bark.  The work starts over again, the handler gives the dog the watch or voran command.  This is where it's up to the decoy and his ability to read dogs.  If the dog is high prey there is no need for whip to bring drive up, sometimes it only loads the dog.  The loaded dog is not a thinking dog.  We want barking here. Not whining, growling or any combination there of.  If the dog is given the sleeve when whining or growling this only reinforces this behavior.  If the dog whines while on the grip the helper can try to not look the dog in the eye, don't do pull backs just allow the dog to hold onto the sleeve.  When the dog has calmed the handler comes up and holds the dog in their arms, nice and calmly (watch your face when doing this the dog could buck his head and hit you with the sleeve).  The dog should not be in conflict  and thrashing the sleeve about.  The dog should feel that being in the handlers arms is a safe and calm place.  We are teaching the dog that there is only one way he will get his reward (sleeve), by being calm.

As a side note when doing OB with my dogs I do it in drive, with a tug.  I also teach the out with the tug.  I also get my dogs used to being held in my arms with the tug.  So when teaching the sit and bark the dog should know how to sitz, platz and out/aus.  Hope this helps.

Kyle

I would ask my TD what he/she thinks the problem would be.  They should be able to tell you what is going on.  

Forums are not the best place to come for information.  I have known people on the forum that has never put a bh on a dog or worked as a helper give advice like they knew what was going on.   

Kyle gave good advice....but as he said it is hard to determine without seeing the dog and I am sure he would also suggest working it out with your TD..

Kyle is right in that the drive is in conflict. You could have the dog come on to the field with the helper about 50 or more yards away. He would stand there doing nothing. If it is as you say the dog will probably BARK as the conflict has been lessened. Send for the bite. The barking becomes the reward with time. With this dog it must be started young to avoid a learned behaviour where he gets rewarded when in a conflicted drive. Over time the distance to the helper is shortened as the barking becomes stronger and clearer. Have seen and used this a few times with young prey monsters with sucess. Good luck and remember to enjoy the journey with your dog to your sch3.

Realcold, interesting technique, I have not scene that technique in practice.  Thanks for sharing.

Ravenwalker, not all TD's are created equal.  I am not calling myself an expert either.  Part of education is asking questions.    Mygsd can now print the responces and take them to her TD for their opinion.  Then the TD can use the information in training or tell Emily to put them in the outhouse for everyone to use when needed,lol.

Kyle

Hi MygsdRebel,

my older GSD used to have some problems as well. The reason of her noisy behavior was maybe not the same as of your dog`s. My dog`s  threshold is rather low and her nerves are far from being strong. Her training was started in a wrong way from the very beginning - it was based on defense drive completely (I was inexperienced and the trainer was a fat-head, alas.  )

But later,  with another trainer we achieved tremendous progress - really deep mouthed striking, full and hard bite. The dog wasn`t hysterical anymore -  she was rather self-confident and watched the helper with great interest. Besides, she stopped trying attacking people near the place we live! (It was impossible to take her out for walks without a muzzle before we changed the trainer.)

I think our new trainer used the same ideas that are described here:

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/prey1.html

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/prey2.html

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/defense.html

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/grip.html

But maybe you read those articles  already.

Good luck!

Olga

Thanks you guys! He just turned 2 in november. There's no way he's afraid to bite, he has been showing some avoidance from me when he runs with the sleeve and I tell him to "hier" and then to "aus". Over the last couple training sessions we've mostly been working on his obedience and protection. We take him onto the field and try to approach calmly with him in a "fuss", he barely holds position whining and sometimes barking to go and bite. His bites are almost always full, unless he miscalculates or something, which is a very rare occasion. I'm almost positive it has nothing to do with being scared, etc. The bite itself is calm and full, but sometimes he makes a growly/whining kind of voice while on the sleeve. Especially when I tell him to out. He has high prey drive, but can act civil at times, depending upon the situation.

I've gotten many different opinions from my own club, but I like to get to know what others say as well. There are many different views working for many different dogs. It's nice to get out and learn as much as you can. I'm not worried about him trying to become dominant, he's submissive to me and know's i'm boss around here.

Thanks for such educated responses, too. I would love to try your theory, Kyle. I think it would work well with my boy. We work with tugs almost every time we train, unless I need him to calm down a bit. His out on the tug is pretty decent. I've been using Ivan's method with the "out" and then once he does it we play for a bit. His outs on the sleeve are a little more.. sloppy. I've got him to out and dragged him away before he could go back for another bite, this I think I can handle and will just get better with some more practice and slow training.

Now, since we're training towards something more calm, the helper doesn't use a stick or whip. He just catches the dog, fights him a bit as reward. Nothing too exciting or out of the ordinary.

I think I answered all the questions you guys asked. haha. Thanks soo much again!

-Emily.