command->timing->correction help - Page 1

how long should I wait before giving a command and giving a correction for not responding. I realize it should be quite quickly.

2 seconds

2 seconds is correct

There was a study conducted and in order for the animal to make the correlation between the command and the correction the timining is 0.35 to 1.5 seconds.  Before or after the stated times, the connection may not be made by the animal.  The times are optimal.

Kylee\

How well does the dog know the command? How old is the dog? On certain occasions, I will allow a learning dog a few moments to mull it over, if I think they will make the right decision. After very exuberant praise, the dog will often repeat said command much faster, as they now have more confidence in it.  A dog that knows it 110% and is just jerking your chain- that's a different story.

I should have been more specific. 2 seconds is the end of the spectrum. After 2 seconds the dog loses it's ability to correclate the correction or reward to the behaviour.

KCzaja brings up a good point as well. If the dog knows the behaviour, that is a different story.

Another point is on very young dogs (I don't correct young dogs)  but if I see they are thinking about what they are going to do, I don't repeat the command and give them time to figure it out, then immediate reward.

I would say make CERTAIN the dog absolutely understands the behavior before correcting the dog for not doing it. I"ve had clients SWEAR to me that their dog "knows" a behavior, only to have it proven that the dog only has a limited contextual learning but doesn't fully understand what is expected. For instance, does the dog REALLY know that sit means sit? will he sit with your back facing him, or while you're on the floor? Or must you be facing him? if that's the case, he maybe only understands it in context, and is it really fair to issue a correction for noncompliance? (other then some guidance with the leash?) So I tell students they must be CERTAIN that the dog understands the behavior being asked. THEN, if the dog is not doing it for some reason, I tell them to try to find out why. For instance, is there some sort of injury? I knew a guy that kept correcting the dog for not going over the hurdle...only to find out later there was injury involved and the dog COULDNT do the exercise. How many times had the poor dog been corrected when he couldn't physically do it. Also, the use of "bridges" allows a time lapse...you can mark an exact moment in time that tells the dog THAT is what he is getting corrected for and it allows a bit more time lapse, just the same way you can mark a behavior that will be rewarded and it allows you a little longer to get the reward to them. Still, corrections need to be deemed fair first, then timed correctly second.  Generally a marker needs to happen within a second or two (max), and then you may have a second or two(max) beyond that, only works well if its fair though. 

You may not correct a pup , but you very well better in that 2 seconds show it how to do it by gentle persuasion or you  lose the attention.,,,,no reward     same with the reward of a puppy     2 seconds havae that treat in its mouth ......

No fumbling  get your pack in your tummy or a vest to have a reward ready at that 2 seconds....also be ready to show that pup,   how to do what it is your commanding/

And you have to use many tricks to get the come  or   hier  done  ...and that is one command  you cant correct   you have to learn tricks....   give it up if you dont have th dogs attention and no yelling accross the yard  ....if dog isnt in your attention span    , stop and wait till later that day.....  the Hier   or  come    is the hardest to correct....takes  more than correction...all other commands   2 second response  

 Um while I agree with you somewhat Yellow Rose, I also disagree with you. 2 seconds to have a treat in his mouth is what I both agree and disagree on. With the appropriate use of a "bridge" or "markers" you do not have to have the treat in his mouth during that time. You simply inform the dog that the action he is doing at THAT time, is what will be rewarded. The beauty of markers/bridges is that they allow you additional time to reward or correct. (when trained correctly that is). Take as an extreme example a dolphin jumping through a hoop 20 feet from his trainer. How on earth is the trainer to get the fish into the dolphins mouth within 2 seconds of the dolphin jumping through the hoop? He can't. So he uses a marker (like a buzzer) to inform the dolphin the second he goes through the hoop that THAT is the behavior that will be rewarded. Because the dolphin has had an association made between the buzzer and the reward, this can be done. Another example, a free flying bird show. The bird may have to work a sequence of commands far away from his trainer, and yet, how can the trainer have the treat in his mouth within 2 seconds? I've seen it in my work with exotics, as well as dogs. For instance, I used to be a studio animal trainer. Think of some of the complex sequences a studio dog may have to perform. The trainer can not at every correct response step in and reward or correct the dog (she/he would step into camera). The dogs are also at times worked at a greater distance from the trainer then we may see on the schuthzund field, and usually with much heavier distractions. And yet, how does a trainer communicate to the dog to continue on the path he's going? with conditioned reinforcers/bridges/markers (whatever you want to call them as the case may be). They may have a chance to reshoot a scene, but not always depending on what they're doing. I've had to work on live stage shows before and needed to get the dog to keep performing. I couldn't ALWAYS tell the dog what he was doing was correct, but during training for those, I had to teach the dog to perform something with me out of sight, and at a great distance...hence the use of the reinforcers. 

I have had people in the past say "well, schutzhund dogs are different". Hmmm...howso? The reason I love Ivan B.'s work so much is because he took something I was already familiar with (the use of secondary and tertiary reinforcers) and applied them to schutzhund. And not only did he apply them, he does extremely well with them (in the top ranks of the sport). He uses markers to tell the dog that he is on the right path and that he will be rewarded if he continues on that path, and then he uses markers to tell the dog the exercise is completed and that the reward is now available. He uses markers to tell the dog when he is NOT on the correct path and that continuing on that path will make the reward unavailable. 

So while I agree that it's important to have reward or correction readily available to avoid fumbling, you CAN use reinforcers to buy you a bit of time....