Where does the croup start

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by Ceph on 16 January 2008 - 12:01

Hey - sorry, this is something that has confused me for a little bit, and I know there are going to be a few different answers, but can someone show me on a picture (a little paint arrow maybe) where the croup is supposed to start on the GSD?

Thanks a bunch

~Cate

by AandA on 16 January 2008 - 15:01

I've always understood it starts at the pin-bones. These can be found be running both hands along each side of the spine until thet meet a protruding bone - somewhere before the hip joint. This is the start of pelvis or croup.

As for trying to show this on a picture well I gave up

If this is complete & utter tosh then I am quite willing to stand & be corrected!

by Ceph on 16 January 2008 - 15:01

Thats kind of what I thought...but I get confused sometimes with it...maybe a better question would be to have three dogs, one with a long croup, one with a short croup, and one good croup and show the arrows.

O.o

~Cate

by isaac on 16 January 2008 - 15:01

that would be nice. anyone here care to share their knowledge?

by AandA on 16 January 2008 - 15:01

I often wonder if experienced judges can determine the start of the croup from just looking & also need to get hands on.

Perhaps I'm been pedantic here, but the three dogs croups may all start at the same point but still be of different lengths!!

I'm with you though Cate, the whole topic of croup length is still a bit of a mystery to me. I think I understand the croup angle well enough - until somebody mentions something that goes against my thoughts & Bang! I'm back in that confused tail spin again

AandA

by Ceph on 16 January 2008 - 17:01

I really just wanna know where everyone thinks it starts O.o I have a dog with a very straight topline...and I sometimes I get the feeling that the person who is always picking at he croup being short is under the impression that the croup should start halfway up her back O.o I always thought it was at the hip bones...but I really just wanna know what it is supposed to be O.o Though I imagine its going to be different for a working line, highline and ambred person.

~Cate

by ProudShepherdPoppa on 16 January 2008 - 19:01

From "The Illustrated Standard Of The German Shepherd" THE CROUP The croup consists of the fused sacral vertebrae, or sacrum, that form the roof of the pelvis, and the first few caudal vertebrae of the tail, depending on how long the croup is (Fig 9). Its slope is usually determined by the slope of the pelvis, but not in all cases. Most dogs with a very steep pelvis will show similarly steep croup, but it is possible for a steep pelvis to carry a very high tail, and show a flat, short croup. A flat pelvis will show a flat croup, but it could be long or short depending upon the tail set. Even an ideally set pelvis can show a croup that is long or short. In fact, the length of croup really has little or no effect on gait. There is some involvement of the muscles over the croup in the distribution of power to the spine, probably as stabilizers, but length of croup doesn't affect length of stride - watch any big striding, high tailed standard poodle. The degree of slope in the pelvis is what is critical for good movement, and the requirement of a long, smoothly sloping croup and low tail set and carriage is more esthetic than practical. It is possible that the very long croup demanded of show dogs may even be problematic, as a longer croup can be achieved through softer temperament. As the mind of a dog goes, so goes its tail, and therefore, to some degree, its croup. The very strong, dominant, high drive dog that consistently carries his tail high is probably going to show some shortness of croup, at least by conformation show standards.

by marci on 16 January 2008 - 22:01

This is what I thought about long ago... the major difference between Show and Working lines is the CROUP... You can see good working character in slight roachies.... but it is common to see dominant and aggressive dogs having short croups and high tail sets... and ~Cate you maybe right that some people think that the croup should be further up from the pelvis... You cant' guess how long those SACRAL vertebra is... and if they are realated to the length of the loins... I remember asking here in PDB why the Croup needed to be long? I was thinking its a contributing factor to HD because more bone in the pelvis needs more Cacium and a lack of it may lead to HD...

Anyway, I got a whacking answer from "clearwater" that the Croup needs to be long in order to have more bone to connect the large muscles of the thigh... And the High-Long Withers + Short Back (excluding the loin area) + Long Croup are among the RECESSIVES that a Breeder is trying to achieve to get good conformation and is really hard to achieve...

by AandA on 17 January 2008 - 11:01

Interesting comment about the slope/length of the croup producing a lower tail set & softening of character. I've seen & heard that's it's possible to raise the confidence of a dog merely by manually lifting it's tail.

But oh lord... I'm starting to get into another tailspin of confusion

From what PSP posted I'm thinking the croup isn't just the length of the pelvis or a single physical part of the skeleton but rather an 'imaginary' element in a dog's top line, correct?

If that's so then a long croup might not necessarily mean a long pelvis and subsequent strength provided when connecting to the thigh muscles.

Help!

AandA

by Deejays_Owner on 17 January 2008 - 18:01

I put a few dimensions on his picture.

In Critique "He has a short croup should a bit longer & the tailset is a bit high."

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