the Panda Shepherd: an observation in Genetics - Page 7

jc, from the Chart Panja should be a Sable that carries Black,

Cezar a Sable that Carries??? His dam has no pic.

LInk to Damion a Bodrix x Stretch. I registered him bi color

www.lankapage.com/gamini/damion/more_pict_july4_vac.html

BUT I had a client buy two puppies and you can see their pictures on my website

www.vogelhausgsd.com

They are the two laying on the couch on the front page.  There is a link to some of their litter mates under photos and D litter.  The male is registered black and tan because he clearly had way more tan markings than his sister who is registered bi color.  So in that litter of 11 I had black and tan, sable, and bi color but no blacks. 

Karmen

Hi Karmen,

From all the pics plus the two on the Coutch all pups look to be either Sable or Bicolor with no B/T

Karmen Wrote:

"They are the two laying on the couch on the front page.  There is a link to some of their litter mates under photos and D litter.  The male is registered black and tan because he clearly had way more tan markings than his sister who is registered bi color.  So in that litter of 11 I had black and tan, sable, and bi color but no blacks. "

With 11 pups to choose from, if all the B/T had Black hocks, then the Chart could be absolutely right in that your Strech is then ( Sable/ Bicolor) genetically, so my thoughts are wrong that Sables that carry bicolor have black hocks."

and if Bicolor is defined by the Black hock and Tan vent then many B/Ts are really Bicolors, like:

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/528310.html

this dog above looks more Black and Tan than Bicolor, but his Black Hock defines him as Bicolor.

Still, the whole being able to register a dog as Bicolor is Completely new. All of your B/T or Bicolors from that D litter look indeed to bi-colors from the pics I have seen, and if the Chart is right, all the Bi-Colors from the D litter Carry Black, and all the Sables from the D litter also Carry Black. ( So Far the Chart is absolutely right).

Ferrum;

She'd have to be a black carrier to produce black offspring. Simple recessive. I don't believe she carries anything else... I was assuming that from her litters. I've done several breedings between her and Cezar; mostly sables, occasionally a black or two pops up.

I always thought that bi-color to be defined as a dog that has two colors, but the fur in each area is solid colored. It's been my understanding that the banded hairs in the fur (agouti / sable) is the defining characteristic of a sable dog; and a dog that does not have banded hairs is therefor not a sable. And black GSDs are dogs that are predominantly black, even if they have a faint colored ticking at the throat/vent/toes. Many black animals have even "blacker" shades in their fur, I've seen black cats that in sunlight appeared to have black on black siamese or tabby markings. Insofar as defining "black," unless the color is more than a few hairs, I think that would be safe to say the dog was black and not bi-colored, though genetically it might not be that simple...

Ferrum;

She'd have to be a black carrier to produce black offspring. Simple recessive. I don't believe she carries anything else... I was assuming that from her litters. I've done several breedings between her and Cezar; mostly sables, occasionally a black or two pops up.

Yes I meant to say that the chart says that's what she is also.

I always thought that bi-color to be defined as a dog that has two colors, but the fur in each area is solid colored. It's been my understanding that the banded hairs in the fur (agouti / sable) is the defining characteristic of a sable dog; and a dog that does not have banded hairs is therefor not a sable. And black GSDs are dogs that are predominantly black, even if they have a faint colored ticking at the throat/vent/toes. Many black animals have even "blacker" shades in their fur, I've seen black cats that in sunlight appeared to have black on black siamese or tabby markings. Insofar as defining "black," unless the color is more than a few hairs, I think that would be safe to say the dog was black and not bi-colored, though genetically it might not be that simple...

That is what I thought as well, ( always Black/liver/or Blue with Tan/Red/or Silver), Except when White with another solid color, because I called those "Parti-Color"

I am with you in all you say except that in Bicolors in the GSD breed, more often than not the hair is a little lighter on the belly and inner thigh ( sometimes near white) just as Some Black and Tans/Reds, have lighter colors on the belly and inner thigh as well as the feathering on the back of the thighs and under the tail.

Some Bicolors in the GSD have severe intermixing of Black and tan hairs without clear edges to define each color. Also, while Bicolor Dobes and Rotties to me look pure Rust/tan and Black, in the GSD the bicolors often have variation in the Tan/red/silver portions of the coat.

You will need to tell me, are All the Black hairs in a Sable banded? I can tell you with 100% accuracy that my Black/Tan GSD bitch has Banding on the hairs on her withers, these being from the root up: Tan then Black, then Tan. This banding is only on the long Guard hairs on her withers and the sides of her saddle marking are almost pure black ( Now very pale as she is 10 years old in may). But this may also be because she has the silver or tan mixed in on her topline. ( Forgot the name for that).  Strangely all her undercoat on the withers and top of the neck region is Dark Black/Gray, so when you pull the light guard hairs back, you see Black.

There used top be a Coat feature in American GSD lines called the " Paladen Coat" this was when a Black and Tan or a Bicolor dog had very light undercoat under the Black Guard hairs. I looked strange, as when you parted the black areas of the coat you would see all this light fuzzy hair underneath.

JC Wrote:

I know that my sables are black carriers because they've produced all black pups, and all the photos of their offspring that I was able to track down show the progeny  to have black hocks. If Cezar's father carries bi-color, it could stand to reason that Cezar may also carry it...

If both female, Panja [pedigree]

male, Cezar [pedigree]'s side: His father produced some nice bi-color progeny

If both have already produced Black puppies for you then they are both Sables that Carry Ressevive Black, and will not produce bi-color unless bred to a GSD that carries it. ( if the Chart is right)

Maybe Sables that Carry Black have Blackening of the Hock but not those that carry Bicolor? Hummmm

OK so what is considered a bi color is because of the black on the hocks?  So the male who has more tan on him than the female (on his chest some more tan that goes up the leg than hers) is still considered a bi color because of the black on the hock?  So if he did not have the black on the hock would he be considered a black and tan?  I really am learning a lot here, thanks

Karmen

Yes Karmen, Exactly

You can call the dogs with more Black Bicolors and even register the ones with more tan as Black / Tan, but for genetic purposes, they are Bicolors.

Black hocks and the Tan vent that someone kindly mentioned :-)

My West-German dogs have banded fur around the ruffs of their necks, but not so much into the rest of the saddle. The underhair is usually a different color than the guard hair.

Just for observation: This ad is for a dog that is called "sable"... except all my opinions tell me it's a black'n'tan. Figured I'd put it up, and see other peoples thoughts

>Some Bicolors in the GSD have severe intermixing of Black and tan hairs without clear edges to define each color. Also, while Bicolor Dobes and Rotties to me look pure Rust/tan and Black, in the GSD the bicolors often have variation in the Tan/red/silver portions of the coat.

Yes. It's not as if there are invisible lines designated tan patches from the black. My rottie had a few stray red hairs here and there, and her red patches veried in hue from rust to straw, especially on the backs of her legs, armpits, and tail (she was natural). For the record: she was not 100% rott, (actually Rott x GSD x Chow) but had the physical traits of a rottweiler with a black tongue, and slightly larger ears. The color was the same.

A few rott people advised tweezing the stray red-hairs, to enhance the solid black effect on her. I didn't view it as necessary, and never bothered..