teaching the OUT - Page 1

I'm teaching the out command to my pup on the String ball and pillow.

When I want the dog to leave the toy I generally immobilize the toy and hold it close to me. The dog loses interest and leaves it. However here is the problem:--  When I pat him the moment he leaves the toy he gets into overdriev and tries to bite my petting hand whihc  says "Good Boy". I don;t have a helper and the dog is not on the leash.

Should I pet him after he leaves the toy or just praise hime thru voice command? Obviously the dog is hard and is not liking the obedience part.

Can someone shed some light? If I'm doing things correctly and what else I need to do?

cheers

One thing I have done for teaching the out is using two toys.  I play with one while the other is in a pocket.  When I want the dog to out I let go of the toy in his mouth and present the second toy.  He then drops the first one and goes for the second and then we play with that one.  When I want him to out that one I do the same thing again.  You can then praise him while on the toy while his mouth is occupied.  This also helps teach a fast out without hesitation because the out command means another instant reward.  When you are finnished playing tell him out and when he goes for the second toy make him miss the toy and hide it in a pocket.  I am sure others have many good ideas for the out but this is what is working very well with my 8 month old pup.

viper,

can you tell me the reason that my pup growls when I pet him. He fights with him and does not like when he has to let go.

How can I tone down his fght instinct?

cheers

I can't say anything for sure without seeing it in person.  He may be growling out of conflict or out of drive.  I don't know you or your dog so I can't say exactly what you should do but I can suggest that you try doing it the way I suggested above.  If he is a strong dog and feels conflct over the out command and you continue to put pressure on the out you could create more of an issue but if you teach the out through play with and instant reward for outing then the out command becomes something positive.  Of course eventually you will need to teach him to out without a second toy but you have to teach in steps and you can't skip steps.  Maybe take a few steps back and teach the out as a positive thing with the instant reward and slowly your dog won't dislike the command so much.  If you want to title him or show him you probably don't want to tone down anything but if all you want is for him to be an active house pet and have no intentions of titling and showing then I would use a leash and collar and correct him for not outing clean but of course only after he has learned what the correction means.  Just some suggestions.  Good luck.

 I play "the game" Ivan B style, I'm working on 4 dogs this way, the last one I sold was trained that way. Alot depends on the dog, and I've only been to a few seminars and watched the videos over and over but as I recall and as I understand it there's rules of "the game" when done this way. 

 Rules for the handler include never trying to move the toy behind your back or out of dogs sight, never allowing the dog to get the toy until given the release command, several others I can't remember at this time in the morning:-)

How I taught the "out" (and my last adult dog that I was allowed to continue working this with had a beautiful out, I've had a few problems since, generally because I have done some loophole in the training or whatnot) is during play with ball or tug. We tug and play then I command and lock up. Instant he lets go, I give release command and he's allowed to play again. We do this a bunch in the beginning. Out means I'll release and then start the game again quickly. Faster the dog outs, faster he gets the release word and the toy again. When I'm ready to be done, I can't remember what I do. I think I tell my dog "all done" or maybe I just don't give the release command and therefore he knows he's not going to get it. After the "out is solid on the toy like this and he's outing quickly I then start incorporating more obedience into the game. I do have one dog that will take awhile to "out" even when played this way. He holds onto it for a minute, then spits it out quickly. somehow (I must have inadvertently rewarded incorrectly or something) he got into his head that he should physically spit it out of his mouth quickly, but not start the process of spitting it out until he feels like it:-)) With him I have started light tugs on the collar (NOT corrections as that just puts conflict in the out, which was the problem I was seeing with him for a bit there he was getting corrected for not outing, but it does put him into conflict and the fight turns on). I'm saying I do nag tugs on the collar until he lets go, then release command and game starts. Pleasant to let go, unpleasant (though not painful) to hold on after being told to let go. He is getting faster on his outs during the game. Now I will transfer it to the decoy. 

For the petting/growling thing I think most of us can't tell what to do because we can't see what's really going on there. If he was growling out of conflict thinking that you're going to take this thing from him if he lets you get near him, you've gotta get rid of that conflict. The fun should be in the game itself, not in the possession of the toy when playing with the handler this way. Without seeing what exactly is going on it's hard to say, and I'm no expert on dealing with that...but I know if my pup was doing that I would figure out why, and determine if it's something I want to leave alone, or work on from there. 

I agree with Shasta.  You don't need to have two toys.  Once the dog realizes that the faster it outs, the faster the game resumes.  Later down the road, the same can be applied with the sleeve. 

mSAYBE YOU PLAYED TUG TOO MUCH WITH HIM WHEN HE WAS YOUNGER., AND HE ASSOCIATES THIS GROWL WITH THE RELEASE OF THE AGRESSION WHICH KEPT HIM A TUG IN HIS MOUTH....iM JUST ASSUMING....ANYTHING A DOG OR PUP LEARNS , EVEN THE FIRST THREE WEEKS WITH YOU,,,HE CARRIES INTO THE NEXT LEVEL OF TRAINING,,,,I ALWAYS INSTRUCT,,,,,LIKE MY FIRST TRAINER.......DO NOT LET YOUR PUP LEARN A HABIT NOT WANTED,,,IT IS TIME SPENT,,  UNDOING THAT HABIT...LATER DOWN THE LINE......

EVERY ONE THINKS A GROWLING PUPPY ON THE OTHER END OF A TUG OR RAG IS CUTE....AND IT IS....FOR A PET...BUT IF YOU ARE TITLING OR USING YOUR PUP FOR SPORT ...YOU HAVE TO LIVE A DIFFERENT KIND OF LIFE WITH YOUR PUP...

i THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD SITE,,,,FORGET THAT,,,,,THE NEW PEOPLE MAY NOT KNOW THAT.......

I don't know what your goals are with the dog. If you are wanting to do bitework, my answer is a question......

Why do you feel the need to instill an out in a 5 month old puppy?

Hi Vikram,  

you wrote: "How can I tone down his fght instinct?"

Maybe it would be more appropriate to consider drive channeling?

As Armin Winkler wrote in one of his articles

"Dog training is not an exact science, it is educated (!!!) guesswork." http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/terms1.html

Why don`t you find a good club or trainer?

And I agree completely with yellowrose of Texas: "DO NOT LET YOUR PUP LEARN A HABIT NOT WANTED".

Here is my young dog`s photo:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/161631.html

I like he is dominant but I am not going to let him do whatever he wants. I work with professional trainers here in Moscow and we do obedience. You wrote: "Obviously the dog is hard and is not liking the obedience part."

"Obedience" doesn`t mean "blind submission". If it`s being done properly young dog will enjoy it!

Good luck!

Olga