Tracking without food - Page 1

 I am on a list where they are having a conversation about tracking ideas without having to use the "food in every footstep" method. I unfortunately live in an area where it's either short "park" type grass, or dirt, not alot of places I can hide something for the dog to find as you can generally see things on the track from far off. But I was wondering if there are many people out there who track without using food in every footstep as foundation. And if so, if they get the same deep nose, concentrated, rhythmic tracking? 

Hi, I don't know about teaching a dog to do schutzhund style tracking without food, but I do often times have to track in the same type of grass you describe.  I cut my bait the size of a pea and I use a PVC pipe to place the food in each footstep.  With the pipe, you can get the bait under the grass.

 Do you find that putting the bait under the grass creates dogs that then either stop and dig at or try to eat grass to get to the food?

No, I've never had that problem.  Is that what your dog is doing?

Shasta...Foundation work is the most important...So you either find the right kind of track for them or you just don't track...But the important thing is for your dog to keep their nose to the ground...for Schutzhund...You don't need to hide the food on the track to teach your dog the way to track...the idea is to create an association between finding the food and the scent on the track...then you can start to remove the food....slowly....You can then start to use a little obedience on the track to keep their nose down...From what you've said I take it you haven't done much tracking?...There are other ways to learn tracking...but for Schutzhund you want a deep nose and check out each and every footstep...So you must get them to want to put their noses in each footstep...

~Bob~

 Oh I've done tracking, I was just curious on other ways. No I put sch3 Ipo3 TR1 (HOT) on my first boy (he normally did in the 90's on the track on an ON day, then have worked a few dogs since, so I'm not an utter newbie to schutzhund (7-8 years) but not an old timer either:-) I currently have 2 boys working towards their 1's, and a pup coming up through the ranks. I am used to doing "crop circles" where we stomp out grass and put food all over the area, then add steps out etc etc depending on the dog, then slowly fade out the food. What I've had problems with on one of my boys (actually probably 2) was I THINK (not positive on this) that the dog was tracking for the scent of the food and not necessarily making the connection that the scent of the track leads to the food. I've used different wind directions etc, and have spent time talking with training director etc to try to combat this, but it's something that's always kind of in the back of my mind. May have gone too fast with him or whatnot, not sure, still working it. I now have this boy working tracks with lots of articles, and downing on the articles is where he gets his food. (assuming the scent of the article is what he's tracking for, and that is associated with food. But I was curious if schutzhund tracking ALWAYS has been done with food in every footstep and then fade out the food, or if there have been other ways to do it. 

LOL if I tried to find perfect conditions or decided not to track my dogs, I would never get to track and that would kind of defeat the purpose of schutzhund:-) We only have dirt tracking (the amount of moisture in the dirt would be what would determine the quality of the tracking here) or basically short park grass tracking. I suppose I could travel way far to go do some tracking, but then my boys probably would track once or twice here and there and that would defeat the purpose as well. So I need to find ways that work with park grass or dirt only tracks. None of this lush longer grass with any kind of moisture I see in other places. I don't even know if that exists here, if it did, I don't know about it. 

Like I said, I was just curious on if other people had found other ways or if that's the way it's always been and if so, if there's a reason for that. 

My dog has not tried to eat at grass, but the one boy WILL dig at it if there's a food piece under the grass (we're talking maybe an inch of grass in length here), maybe 2 inches if we're lucky. He's one I'm concerned is tracking for the scent of the food and not understanding that the scent of the track leads to the food. He's had enough tracks, working with training directors far more experienced than I am, but then again, he is also one of those dogs that just comes up with what he wants to do regardless of what you do. I could just picture him eating his way through the grass down the track if I tried to put it under the grass, which is why I asked that...wanted to see if it was a problem before I tried it...

Bob is correct.  If you want your dog to track "footstep style" tracking, you must teach him to put his nose into every footstep, search every footstep.  Really the only way to do this in a consistant manner, creating a consistant tracking style, is with food in every footstep for foundation, then food in most footsteps, then food in some steps, then periodic food in steps to reward problem-solving, restarts after articles, or corners/turns/changes of terrain etc.  At that point then the dog has learned to search using the footstep method, to find the articles - and he gets the majority of his food reward at the articles as reward (in training).

Yes, you can train without food, using toys or human attraction - but that is called air-scenting, you can do that and it works fine for man-trailing (such as for police K9 tracks), SAR, and also AKC tracking - but for Schutzhund the points would be gone if your dog tracked this way, even some of the time.  AKC tracking is pass-fail so no matter how your dog tracks, if he gets to the end and finds the articles, he passes.

molly

In Schutzhund it's the way your dog tracks...and the quality...not just the end result...so you must teach your dog the proper method to obtain the end result you're looking for...When I first learned to track...many years ago...we used "drag bags"...and then a reward at the end...but it didn't teach "footstep" tracking...and this is still fine for Police Dogs or other types...but for Schutzhund it's a matter of doing the track properly for the most points...If you put food on grass and some of it goes down in between the grass and the dog digs a little for it...it's no problem...the dog is learning to follow the scent...and will soon learn that if he follows the track (scent) that he will be rewarded....If you think your dog is only learning to follow the scent of the food then you must skip a footstep or two and see if he still checks out each footstep...and goes on to find food in the other steps...then start to add skipped steps in a random pattern...the dog will soon learn to check out each and every footstep because there might just be a reward in one or more of them...The only time I take all the food off the track is either checking or testing my dog or for a trail...after the trail...I'll go back and put food back on the track...for a reward...just to keep my dog's attitude up and make him wanting to do it...

~Bob~

Good advise, Bob.  Are you still wearing that ugly gator hat in Michigan?

Molly  -- I don't think your terminology - re - "air scent" is one typically used in that contex by  SAR handlers  (though I have heard trailing referred to as air scenting by some sport people) - it has a different meaning to a SAR handler.

trailing = following the scent trail of the subject which may or may not be on the footfall path as a primary constituent is the skin rafts that fall from the subject and may fall some distance from the track or carried by wind and deposited on nearby vegetatio or other surfaces.   Just as the track ages, so does the trail so the dog can determine a direction of travel due to age.  

air scenting = following scent dispersed from a person though the air.  In this case consider the stationary person as a scent macine (think of a buble machine to visualize) the scent will travel on the wind and diffuse away from the victim. The dog is working from areas of low scent concentration to areas of high scent concentration.  WHen they are in the scent cone (somehting you can see under ideal condtions) the dog will quarter into the scent in an ever narrowing zig zag pattern until they intersect with the person.   It gets more complex if the person is moving.

When a dog runs a really really  fresh trail they may airscent because the trail has not actually settled on the ground yet.  Usually a bare minimum age for a trail to sit is 20 minutes before a dog would be allowed to work it.