Color/Genetics Question - Page 1

If a solid black dog has dogs with great pigment and great black and red color in his background, if bred to a black and tan dog would he improve upon the puppies color. I know he will improve the pigment because pigment referes to the black nose and feet leath and nails and dark eyes but what about the color, will the intensity of the red be effected by him at all?

might be a yes and no question.  He does not possess a gene for other than black color, which means he is homozygous for black, so he cannot affect the depth of red/brown/tan color, though there might be more black than tan in the coloration.  I am simply not sure though on this question.  But I dont think he would affect the actual "hair" color of the colored (non black) hairs.

black dogs are not known to improve pigment or color (red in coat or undercoat), the black dog may make puppies with more black overlay, but undercoat and tan/red will not be darker/redder. 

molly

Molly... how about this .??? female Show line, noted for Very good pigmentation ( Blk and Brwn ) plus the mythological black pigment in the tongue???  Crossed  with a Working line, almost Black sable male but the undercoat is notably light tan (almost cream) or possible that the males undercoat just shedding???  Will the pups be more of almost Black sables or Blk and Tans.??? (the male has those Tar-line on the paws by the ways ...)  I keep  notes of your tips about pigmentation...  But this breeding was to get improvement for my bitch's hardness... She always have one pup thats maxxed in size when bred to showlines... (thats why i figured OUT-CROSSING to this well conformed Working-line male...)

Here's what I thought, but may not be correct:

One gene controls whether the dog is black, bi-colored, black and tan/red, or sable... I listed them starting with the least dominant.  (I'm leaving whites or dilutes out of this BTW.)

A completely different gene controls the hue of the undercoat from red, tan, and silver... again starting with the least dominant.

Therefore a black dog, would indeed have a gene that dictates what undercoat it would have IF it wasn't hidden (which it is) by it's black gene.  If my thoughts are correct then you should look at the ancesters to get an idea as you cannot tell with your dog.  However, if your black and tan has all black and tan ancesters than that is what would be expected.

Just like how the black gene makes other markings darker, I suppose the phenotype (looks) of the undercoat may be different depending on what the actually genotype is.

Great news that will answer all your color questions - there is a brand new DNA test available that will tell you which colors your dog carries recessively and dominantly. I don't have the link to the site yet, but will post it when I get it.

sable is known to improve pigment and color - so breeding to a RED sable, or sable with red undercoat, should add more red/deepen red pigment/undercoat.  And, if the sable is a "black sable" or has a lot of black overlay, the puppies should have more black overlay than the dam.  If the dam is black/red, she can also add red pigment/color to the pups.  However, the black/red parent <probably> does not carry black recessive, so the puppies in the litter of sable X black/red will not be black sables, as she would have to add a black recessive to the sable gene coming from the sire, to create "black sable" puppies.  If the sire is "normal to dark" sable, and the dam is black/red, then puppies will be light grey to normal sables, dark red sables if the female adds red to the sable - and black/red, possibly with more black overlay than the dam from the sires' sable gene.  If the sire has a black gene, no puppies will be black but those black/red inheriting the black from him will be "blanket back" black/reds.  The sable puppies will have inherited the sable from the sire and the black/red from the dam (as that is all she has to give) and so will be grey or red sables, possibly "patterned sable".

molly

Molly is correct...your black and red comes from his ancesters that have the dark red genethically and you only lighten that if you breed to washed out lines.....black just puts more black in the mask or like Molly says  in the overlay....less likely to see so  much    skunk stripping......unless there are sables in the lines....have to consider the rest of the pedigree or we are talking in  generallities...

I wouldn't discount the possiblity of getting rich, dark bicolors either, depending on the genetics.  If the dark sable's lines also go back to bicolor dogs like Troll vd Bosen Nachbarschaft, Filou v Kaolinsee etc... anything can happen :)

he might or might not improve on the red depending on what he carries for at the intensity locus.

The Black is controlled at the Agouti Locus and he is double recessive for that - but if he carries for the recessive alleles at the Intensity Locus then he WILL improve upon the intensity of the tan,  The intensity of the color has nothing to do with him being black and everything to do with what he carries for at the intensity locus.

Likewise the mask also has nothing to do with the black at the agouti locus - that is controlled at the extension locus.

~Cate