Why aren't these dogs living longer - Page 1

First off my condolances for the loss of Rosa in the ther other thread. Losing a best friend, especially around the holidays is extremely difficult. That thread sparked more and more interest in why this breed isnt' living longer. I see all over the place, including my own dogs, that they are lost to cancer at 9 or 9.5. This worries me as my older male approaches this age. Our German Shepherds should be living to at least 12. Now I know there are GSD out there who do but the increase in numbers that die relatively early has me thinking. I know what I believe killed my Dante and what was the root cause of him getting hemangiosarcoma but I wanted to know other thoughts on why they think cancer is taking a hold of our wonderful breed. I have done the raw, minimal vaccine for several years now so I am hoping to increase their chance for a longer life. I, however, live in the country next farm fields where they fertilize and spray for weeds several times a year. I hope this thread sparks good conversation and a look into what we can do to increase the longevity of our breed. Karmen

I think that many dogs are destined for poor health, driven first by genetics and second by environmental exposures. I have never lost a dog to cancer, but I do have an old female who has developed small tumours, one (1) on the breastplate and one (1) on the side of her jaw. I am watching these to make sure they do not change. Throughout my life not a single one of my dogs lived to be much past eleven (11) years of age. The oldest one suffered renal failure and the others were euthanized for degenerative myelopathy, liver failure, etc. They always had annual checkups, bloodwork every couple of years, and normal medical maintenance. A host of theories abound, such as overvaccination, the presence of animal growth hormone and antibiotics in the ingredients of prepared food, dirty air, contaminated water, etc.. I still await the day when one of my dogs makes the Lucky Thirteen Club. I too am anxious to read what other have to say about this subject. Regards, Bob-O

I also think the stress plays a huge roll. I think the dog sports can take their toll on many dogs. Not they they do not enjoy doing it but that I find many of them are dying far too young. I think it's interesting because my cousin has had many dogs in the past and every one lasted for ancient years, one lab still alive at 16. The other GSD cross had to be put down at 17. I had actually rescued that dog. I believe she was a GSD x Doberman cross and a large dog. Both dogs not on the best of diets but yet lived a relatively "stress" free life. Then here I am doing the "top notch" stuff and my dogs dies of hemangiosarcoma at 9. I talk to all my family members about diet among other things yet their dogs out live mine on substandard diets. I think this is just one factor in the big picture Karmen

With my wonderful Eagle now approaching 10, this has been a thought in the front of my mind for a while now. Worry and stress constantly that I'll lose him soon, even though he is the picture of health. His mother died of hemangiosarcoma on her spleen, but she was well into her 12th year when that happened, and healthy/active/sound in body in mind until the day she died, literally. Two of my other dogs died at 11 years old, both hemangiosarcoma, one on the liver, the other the heart. Again, both seemingly 100% fine until the moment they were not. Bodo with his back injury that finally caught up with him at 12 years old. Bright and healthy as ever but hind legs that finally couldn't do it anymore. Then there was Ayla, a 90 lb female Schh3, bad back from doing Schutzhund but never a health problem, died in her sleep gracefully after living a full active life of 14 years. And then there was my mixed breed dog - put to sleep after every part of his body except for his mind failed at 16 years old. He was the one fed "Alpo" for most of his life, vaccinated every single year - took care of him the "old fashioned way" because of ignorance - yet he lived longer than most large-breed dogs despite all of the vaccines, no supplements, preservatives in his food, never one teeth cleaning. Perhaps it was the active outdoor life he led, or maybe it was hybrid vigor in his case. He never slowed down even when his body was shutting off all of it's systems he was still ready to go for his daily routine. I do know that Hemangiosarcoma is a problem in our breed - whether it has a direct genetic link I don't think has been proven, but it is definately in our breed. Nasty evil thing taking our dogs too early. It seems to me that without the Hemangio, they would be living as my old ones did - until 12-16 years old. molly

I think your are so right Molly about Hemangiosarcoma. Our dogs probably would live a lot longer without this evil killer. Dante had hemangio in his heart and just kept bleeding. There are several factors, imo, that jump started this disease in my dog. Dante was out alot that year (2006) and in the sun. He had shade but he prefered being out in it. He developed Pannus, which is directly related to utlraviolet rays from the sun. He was put on eye meds, cyclosporine and predisone both which are immune suppressant drugs. Over a long period of time I think over exposure to sunlight causing immune disorder and then supressing his system took it's toll and allowed the cancer to take a foot hold. Just doing some research on my own proved that cyclosporine in pill form does in deed cause hemangio. Karmen

Karmen, prednisone and cyclosporine both depress the immune system. I wouldn't worry about something natural, like sunlight, except as the cause of pannus and some skin cancers. But since GSD's have dark skins, and fairly thick coats, I wouldn't imagine they'd be prone to the type of skin cancers human sun-worshippers get. However, human transplant patients who have been on prednisone for many years to prevent rejection frequently develop cancer. In humans, the single biggest factor in longevity is heredity. If your parents lived to a ripe old age, you most likely will, too. If we want our dogs to live longer lives, we need to SELECT FOR IT! Louise mentioned an American showdog, Lakeside's Gilligan Island who died suddenly at the age of 3. I couldn't believe how many progeny that dog left behind! If I'd been one of those breeders who used him as a stud, and the cause of death was anything that might be ineherited, I would have gotten rid of all of his progeny in my breeding program. That's the ONLY way to improve longevity. When you linebreed closely, you more than double the chances of 'bad' or even lethal genes popping up in your dogs, so in my mind, outbreeding would be another way of improving longevity. It would be interesting to do a study on the longevity of dogs with a lot of linebreeding in their pedigrees. Knowing what I do about genetics (bachelor's degree in biology) it wouldn't surprise me at all to find dogs with the most linebreeding have the poorest survival rates, whether due to stillbirths, neonatal deaths, or early death from other factors.

I am not worried about skin cancer rather more Pannus since it is caused by sunlight and using the meds to stop the progression of that disease. The meds cause the immune system to drop allowing cancer cells to "grab hold" and take off. But with Pannus I have not done any holistic research to help remedy that so you are kind of stuck if your dog has Pannus. Too much sunlight is not good for us or dogs. I guess my thinking is with the increase in deaths around the age of 9 (not only in GSD but many dogs) that outside influence has to be a huge factor, not just genetics. Dante's grandmother was 13 when she died and his mother is still alive at 12.5 and he was no linebreeding either, not to say that isn't a factor. I am just curious as to what these dogs have been exposed to during their life that may help others and their dogs live a longer life. I do agree though genetics plays a big part, which is the reason I was sure Dante would live a long healthy life considering his mother is alive and grandmother just died at 13.

"I wanted to know other thoughts on why they think cancer is taking a hold of our wonderful breed" ----------------------- I wonder about tracking in farmers fields who use pesticides, etc.. I track my dog 2 to 4 times a week. With this dog, I stay away from the large commercial farmers fields, but it's difficult to find fields owned by organic farmers let alone getting permission to use them. I also think the food we feed has to be a large component. With previous dogs, I fed good quality kibble, but how much of what goes into even good quality kibble is organic? We now know about the problems with China, but who's to say there aren't other questionable chemicals/additives in it? With my current 2 year old dog I made the decision when I got him at 8 weeks to feed only hormone/antibiotic/additive free RAW. I also give him bottled water to drink because of how much fluoride they put in the water. I know there are some breeds that are prone to cancers like the Flat Coated Retriever. It's my understanding the reason is the gene pool is very small, so that obviously isn't our breeds problem but the hereditary factor could certainly play a part. One veterinarian I know said she thinks the very fact that our dogs are living longer plays a big part of it because on average, cancer is a disease that effects the aged more than any other group, though that would have no bearing on so many middle aged dogs who succumb to the disease.

I find it interesting that there is no discussion above about actively selecting dogs for longevity - it works. I was concerned about longevity in our breed back in the 70's and added longevity in the pedigree as a very important factor in looking at dogs. Result - dogs that live healthy lives until 13 or 14. Even in the Amreican lines - they realized they have a tremondous problem with longevity so the GSDCA started a "thirteen club" ( which USCA certainly could do also) that recognizes a dog which reaches it's 13th year( actually passes it's 12th birthday is their criteria). And as I said selecting for it does work. There was a discussion awhile back on this board up breeding to young dogs as the "smart" thing to do - 'cause after they were 3 or so the breeders in the "know" had moved on to the next best thing. Heck give me an 11 year old who's still breeding (been there) any day. A. Testament to health and longevity and b. Probably have a good idea what true quality he produces. Check out Becky Rodgers site - Valkyre GSDs - she's doing something right she's had several dogs who have lived to 15+. Molly, I believe there is mounting evidence that there is some genetic link or at east a genetic predisposition to hemangio. It also seems to be on a time clock. Have known of littermates that all died of it within several months of each other. At a minimum I think its one of those things that would behoove us to start to track until we can develop more information about it. Interestingly my very first shepherd suffered a spleenic bleed they suspected was caused by hemangio and survived w/o any extraordinary measures. Lived several more years until mast cell tumours caused her to be put down. The 3 big illnesses I've seen in older GSDs are DM(late onset slow progression vs the young dog DM wh/ is early and fast), mast cell tumours and cardio myopathy(enlarged heart). The last in some ways is the easiest and toughest at the same time. Easiest because they seem to live great active lives until one day they and their heart just get too old and tired. Hardest because once it is determined it's a very very short time they have. It's always tough regardless the cause but with the DM often when the body gives out the mind and spirit are still as bright as ever wh/ isn't always true of old dogs that get sick from other things so sometimes it's hard finding the right time to say goodbye.

I had a showline bred Great Dane, Benny, 180 pounds slim, who lived to be 11 and Jetta, an American showline female very linebred, especially on Nocturne's Hale who lived to be 12 before being put down. The Dane was in great physical condition, but he started having strokes, and that is what finally took him. They lived on 20 secluded acres and did not roam...they patrolled the property and protected the livestock and also the next door neighbor's livestock and pastures, so that he was happy to have them there and it was all good. They only stayed in that immediate area (I would not have let them have that freedom these days, but we all change as we mature). They ate about 50% cheap dog food and also 50% bones and scraps from the local slaughterhouse, table scraps, fallen fruit, etc. The great dane had an "aunt", a showline great dane also, who lived to be 15 years old. Her owner fed her more meat and bones and a higher quality of kibble. She had less freedom than Benny, but was allowed the big yard at time, crated at times, and allowed to be a housedog at times also. I wonder if both of my dogs would have lived a longer life on a raw diet? Veronica