Was this ever true in Germany? - Page 1

I just spotted this on a breeder's website and was wondering if it were actually true? Did a breed warden sit there at the whelping and evaluate pups and decide to cull right then and there? "Also the Studs had to go thru many test to be approved by the warden so did the bitches, the breed warden also had to be called when the bitch was ready to whelp, only the 6 healthiest best looking by the German Shepherd standards was allowed to be keept and where controlled by the warden, if any type of fault showed up ( like white on the pup or anything that was not standard by the regulations the pup was taken away."

I am not picking on you, so don't take this the wrong way. It is always embarassing when someone starts a conversation with "Is it true there is a German law that (insert comments)?" Oh well, enough of that. Maybe in the very early days of the breed some of that was true in some areas with some breed wardens. The only time I recall that it was advised to remove puppies was when a litter was very large. I think the official suggestion was to allow no more than eight (8) puppies to nurse a dam, and place the "extra" puppies on a foster dam who could provide milk. The reason is simple-make sure the puppies have enough nutrition. Typically, the breed warden inspects a new litter and sees that the whelping area is clean and healthy, and oversees to some degree the selection of the tattoo characters as well as the tattooing of the puppies. He also checks registration papers, breeding documentation, etc.. He is there to make sure there is accurate count, accurate parentage, and an accurate description of the puppies as far as coat type and sex. The culling of faulty pups is typically done by the breeder, and of course the breed warden may advise if he sees something wrong with a puppy such as a faulty coat, cleft palate, etc.. In other words, I think what you found on that website may be very limited in its truth, and is probably the GSD world's version of an urban legend. Regards, Bob-O

actually, a very long time ago, the litters were culled down to five. i think perhaps it was difficult to enforce this rule and it kind of fell along the wayside. besides, if you have a litter of 8-10 healthy and perfectly formed pups, how do you decide what to cull? culling at too young an age could mean that you are destroying the best of the litter. common sense must have taken over there. i am in favor of culling - to a point. obviously, anything with a deformity or serious health problem should be culled at an early age. later culling could be a simple matter of neutering to remove an animal from the gene-pool. pjp

I understand the whole breed warden thing and why it's a good practise, I was just having a hard time imagining one sitting there during the whelping and choosing which pups had to be removed right after birth. The website mentioned that this was witnessed when they were young and living in Germany so I was wondering just how long ago they were doing that. I think I would have a very hard time developing a breed when you know that culling is going to be necessary. Then again, I've seen litters where 90% should be spayed/neutered a.s.a.p.

Most of us carefully cull puppies at least to some degree, and we certainly should do this as not all puppies are destined to be conformation and/or health champions. But of course some things are difficult if not impossible to predict with 100% certainty when they are very young. We all remember the story of the Zamb Wienerau and how he was sold as a puppy and then returned to the Martin brothers as the buyer thought he represented a poor example of the breed. And we rememeber when he took the VA-1 title at the BSZS. I am not a big fan of the Zamb, but his story made him a bit of a hero. Of course our GSD is a relatively new breed of dog that is continually refined (careful there). The rules have been written and revised numerous times over the years as medical science has progressed and the interaction of man vs. dog vs. nature has been understood in greater detail. For an example, fifty (50) years ago many puppies were needlessly killed when an accepted (at that time) manual examination determined that their hips were faulty. The eventual findings were that the puppies who were spared often developed bad hips and the practice was abandoned for better examination methods. The breed is going through a continual evolution that is driven by us, and not the natural selection process. For me; when a website or any other document makes a proclamation it must follow through with "how", "why", and "when" and then keep things in an accurate historical perspective as progressive steps were made. This alone stops the formation of urban legends. MI GSD, I do applaud you for asking the question, as no one should accept information available on the web and some reading materials as 100% truth. Regards, Bob-O

Ziegenfarm, where did they cull a litter down to 5 puppies? I am from Germany and I do not remember that this ever happened? First, we left 6 puppies with a female, then 8. But this did not mean that we killed the excess puppies off. They were put with a foster dam (Amme). Every region has a "foster dam warden" (Ammenvermittlungsstelle) who would coordinate the search for a foster. This female did not need to be a GSD or a purebred at all. Now, we can leave all puppies with a female. But if she has more than 8, we have to skip a heat. My female Gina had 14 (!) puppies last month by Mexx Aurelius. 11 lived and are doing well. Gina can not be bred the next time due to the amount. A breed warden in Germany will inspect a litter after birth (within the first ten days), but not during whelping. That would be cruel and inhumane as we all know how stressed all females would be about the presence of a stranger. Bob-O, that is an interesting story about Zamb Wienerau and not what I heard. Could you tell me more? Why was he a poor example of our breed and not deemed breedworthy? What I heard is that Walter Martin had kept an option to buy him back in his contract for a certain amount of money at one year of age. When he saw him at 12 months old, he did not hesitate to do so and paid a healthy price. The Italian gentleman who had raised him just fullfilled his part of the contract. This comes from a source very close to him. There is much to be said about Zamb but one thing is for certain: Together with his half-brother Jeck, he shaped our modern GSD. Just like Walter Martin said that he would. I have one of the last (if not the last) Zamb-daughters here at home. She turned 14 years old in October and is just amazing. Very strong mind and healthy body. Riane still lifts her leg to mark her territory and everybody accepts it. Chris

Yes it was,before germany had better animal rights laws. The risen for that was since the female only so many nipples to nurse pups. By the way that was in every breed not just sheps. Kathy

Yes Kathy, exactly! That is the reason we used a foster dam! Chris

Chris, that is the story that I heard from many sources, and of course Walter is not with us anymore to verify what was really said or done. Between what you know (and your sources are no doubt closer and better than mine) and I have heard from so many for so many years is the truth. That is just an example of how legends (or rumours) abound. Perhaps some details were conveniently lost in translation, no doubt. The Zamb left his mark on the breed-absolutely no doubt about that. He just was never one of my favourites but that of course is a taste thing. Obviously, many, many people would disagree with me there! Chris, my sincere congratulations on having a GSD with such a long life, as that age is unattainable with so many dogs. I of course always like the "real" truth and of course that is sometimes impossible. But, it is really immaterial as the Zamb did excel as a show dog and the number of litters produced. Best Regards, Bob-O

Thanks Chris for that info. It makes much more sense than a warden just walking off with the excess pups.