Is it possible for a confident dog to be dog aggressive?

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by Ryanhaus on 09 December 2007 - 22:12

I was at a dog show this weekend and they were having a police dog demo and the
K-9 was a 6 year old German Shepherd imported from Germany.
The officer stated that because his dog was an alpha dog and was very confident,
that it was a bit dog aggressive, loved people though.

Should a dog aggressive dog be faulted?

My girl Tessie is dog aggressive, but she is still a pup, (10 months)
should I worry, and also she is the only dog I started rag work with.

by Trafalgar on 09 December 2007 - 23:12

I certainly thnk it's possible for a confident dog to be dog aggressive. but I certainly consider it a fault, don't you? Any aggression, if not appropriate to the situation is a fault in my mind. The degree of the fault should be the degree of the innappropriateness of the aggressive behavior. For instance, go to a Schutzhund trial in cool weather while many folks have their dogs crated in SUVs. The dogs that go ballistic as you pass by their vehicle - are in my opinion - not exhibiting good sense and should be faulted for their aggression. Whether it' s bad nerves, territoriality, etc....the fact remains that it is NOT GOOD.

by Kerschberger on 10 December 2007 - 02:12

We call that bastard "AN ALPHA"

by VBK9 on 10 December 2007 - 02:12

It depends on the situation, if the dog is truely confident and dog aggressive it is one thing, but fear aggression is completly different. I have not seen many truely dog aggressive 10 month olds. Does your dog activly try to pick fights and lunge at other dogs or does she just bristle up when another dog gets too close? "A bit" dog aggressive is totally different than a dog "going ballistic" while crated or needing to be muzzled any time they are around other dogs.

by VonIsengard on 10 December 2007 - 02:12

Absolutely possible. There are different kinds of dog aggression just like there are different kinds of human aggression. And I wouldn't consider a dog that needs an experienced handler "faulted" at all.

As a handler, there is no need whatsoever for a handler to ever tolerate dog aggression. Correcting a dog for acting out towards other dogs fairly in no way shape or form damages drive and anyone that tells you otherwise does not understand aggression.

by shasta on 10 December 2007 - 04:12

I think that the dog described sounds more like a bully then a confident dog. You can have higher status animals (read dominant) that are bullies in their personality. It's the same in people, you can have high status people who bully others. But the truly confident animal doesn't need to constantly display to others their higher status and "rub it in their faces" constantly. The TRUE benevolent alpha doesn't really need to go about strutting their stuff. It is usually a beta that would be more likely to worry about position and status seeking. It sounds like that dog was allowed to bully other dogs and had it excused as "alpha behavior".

by shasta on 10 December 2007 - 04:12

I would be wary of telling someone on the internet to correct a dog aggressive dog without seeing what the dog is doing and figuring out some semblance of why personally. While you would THINK that it can fix dog aggression, it really depends on the type and also what the goals for the dog are. The person talking here seems like they're just wanting to do schutzhund and in that case, the dog just needs to ignore the other dogs on the field and be civil around them. But someone owning a pet dog that reads the information to correct a dog for dog aggression may create more problems then it's worth. If the goal is lets say to work with a dog that is fearful towards other dogs and acting out by striking first, correcting the dog may SQUELCH the behavior, but it doesn't fix the fact that the dog feels reactive towards other dogs. I think there's too many times we're too quick to just say "correct that". Not that the dog should be allowed to get away with it, there's other things that could be done, but if for instance every time a dog looks in the direction of another dog, he is corrected, he could easily make the negative association between other dogs and getting corrected. He may hold back and then explode. There needs to be a default behavior established (for instance, when you see another dog you should do ______ (could be watch me, heel, whatever)) THEN once the dog understands what is expected, you could correct for not performing the default behavior....but the correction should not be just done because another dog entered the room, and besides, many people don't have the timing to do it well, and if they do, even more people are likely to either overkill, or they react with stress and the dog picks up on that.

My human example would be, if I wanted to fight you, and maybe even was slightly intimidated by you, or even just in the mood to fight, and someone else came up every time you entered the room and I looked at you, and they hit me in the back of the head, is that going to change how I feel about you? Probably not. It may squelch the outward appearance of that dislike, until I could find another opportunity to go for it, or I felt like the person correcting wasn't watching. But it doesn't change the underlying problem....that I don't like you. If on the other hand, I was taught that every time you entered the room, if I turned and looked at someone and then was required to perform some task (to relieve the adrenaline) and I knew I would get rewarded for it(for me that would be a piece of german chocolate cake:-))then after that became a default behavior I knew I would get corrected for not performing it, I might almost beg you to come closer because every time you enter the room and I perform the behavior I get cake. I may still not like you, but I'd be so focused on choosing the cake over the correction I would probably tolerate you a little better.

Anyways, I don't use the same theory with all dogs, some dogs just need a correction, but that would be impossible to say without seeing the dog and knowing all the details. The 10 month old MAY be fearful/reactive towards other dogs, correcting her MAY (without knowing what's going on it's impossible to say over the internet) create more problems then they're worth without a solid foundation. It needs to be worked on, but I wouldn't personally be so quick to say she needs a solid correction. I don't believe that a correction kills drive per se, I just think it can create more problems in the long run without knowing what the background is, a solid foundation, good timing and handling skills etc. Also knowing WHEN the dog is reacting dog aggressively. There's a huge difference between a bully that just wants to go out and fight every dog he sees, and a dog that reacts aggressively when another dog lets say takes his bone. Besides, I personally refuse to label very many dogs as "aggressive". That's like saying that be

by MaxVonPotterdam on 31 December 2007 - 06:12

mirasmom, I think the response the K-9 officer gave you regarding his dog's aggression was the excuse for the behavior not the reason. GSD's are very intelligent and sometimes they trick us into making deals such as, "I'll follow your commands and listen to you, but I'm going to do what I want to other dogs." Some handlers/trainers get sucked into these deals with their dogs because they are more focused on the dog following their commands and not making them "look bad" in front of judges or fellow competitors. To them aggression toward other dogs is more acceptable than not paying attention to them during training/competition. But if the handler is really in command of the dog the dog needs to listen ALL the time, not when it feels like doing so. I had a GSD who came to me when he was 8 months old after being with a man, his wife, and small child. When I went to the family's home to meet the dog he was aloof and distrusting of me. I kept my distance and allowed the dog to check me out and eventually he came over to where I was sitting and he sniffed me. It struck me as odd that the wife and the little boy did not seem to want anything to do with the dog. The husband was devoted to the dog but worked long hours and his only interactions with the animal were to either feed it or play tug of war with him. I remember clearly that he instructed me that if I played tug of war with this dog that I should NEVER let the dog win. So I knew I was taking on a dog with little/no socialization skills and a history of inappropriate interactions with people. When I took ownership of this dog I stayed home with him for 4 weeks straight. I never left him for more than 2 hours at a time. I walked him on a thirty foot leash to give him space and build trust. In the house I did not approach him for the first week or two. I sat in a chair in front of the TV and he watched me from across the room. I would occasionally have snacks and when he approached me or looked in my direction I would reward him with a snack. Soon he started laying beside me whether or not I had snacks. Outside he was initially shy and submissive around much smaller dogs. At the time he was 85 pounds and I saw a miniature pinscher approach him, stare him in the eye, and bark at him like he was going to eat him. My dog put his head down and sat still. Some kids saw this and said, "Hey mister, what's wrong with your dog?" I said, "Nothing, come back in a month and see what he does." At the time I had only had the dog a week or so. Sure enough, a month later, after he had bonded with me he was a completely different animal. When the little pinscher approached him again and barked, my dog lunged at him with no bark, no growl, no snarl, just a wide opened mouth of exposed teeth. The other dog squealled and lit out for home. From that point on he had no fear of dogs. He chased a lab out of our yard one day because the other dog had the nerve to enter our yard and urinate. The lab never came back, even though he had beeen peeing in my yard for months prior to me getting this dog. Shortly thereafter I had to consult a "specialist" who had a long history of working with guard/attack dogs for private security. He came to my house and said he wanted to do leash work with my dog. When he arrived and met my dog it became evident my dog was NOT going to allow this man to work with him on leash. So he So he just watched me work with him and gave me suggestions for gaining and keeping his attention. He told me my dog was not bad, but he was what professionals in the field called a "hard" dog. On a scale of 1 to 10 he said he was a 9. And he said he could find him work guarding offices or parking lots. I told the man this was a pet, not a junk yard dog or parking lot prowler. He suggested I get a prong collar, a good leather leash, and correct him when he started to stiffen up or raise his tail when another dog approached. Because I adopted a zero tolerance for attacking other dogs

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