Equivalent working titles? - Page 1

Folks,

Here's some grist for the mill.... SchH was developed to test a GSD to see if the dog is suitable for breeding, right?  We ought to be breeding titled dogs, with hip Xrayed, yada yada yada.

SchH is growing in popularity in the US, but if you spread out a map and mark the locations of the established clubs... they are still relatively few in number with a lot of geography in between. If you want to get a HGH title, there may be only one or two such clubs. I've heard tales of people driving 4 hrs each way to get to a helper.  I hope those folks are retired, and have lots of gas money. 

Even according to the database statistics, only about 1% of the dogs registered have a SchH or HGH title. 

So, what would you consider an equivalent working title... in the sense that you would feel a dog has demonstrated his/her abilities, temperament, and suitability for breeding?  Please share your opinions.

I can imagine the purists would argure that if a dog isn't SchH titled, breed surveyed, Xrayed, DNA'ed... then it not be bred no matter what.

As for the others... would you breed to...

...a certified SAR dog, ....a working police dog, ....a MACH Agility dog, ....a licensed service dog, .... what else?

Thanks for your input.  Let's try and keep it civil.  Nobody has to prove themselves "right" on this thread. 

Yvette

It sounds good. 

I dont see a better way to test the dogs  tracking skills, obedience, courage and willingness to work better than schutzhund.  That is why it was developed.

Just because a dog is a police dog it means it is a good dog.  From what I understand there are alot of police dogs out there that arnt worth much.  Most police dept. operate on a low budget...so they get what they can afford.  I know of a breeder in my area that brags that his stud dog was a county police dog.  I have seen his pups...nothing I would want.  

If a police dog is ok for the work...does that mean it would be good for anything else....who knows.

I dont think an SAR dog would be a good enough test for the dog on all the levels that schutzhund is.   It is also very hard to find a good trainer. 

Herding is great...but very difficult to get training.

I think shutzhund be the starting point for the selection of what type of dog a particular person is looking for.  Its a great way to see what areas the dog has to most potential in....and go from there.

Schuuzhund as a breed survey and a sport should be split.  Let the breed survey go back to what it was meant to be.   Let the sport people have thier sport...just dont make it part of the breed survey.

IMO breeding for sport can be just as bad as breeding for show.

I would not to a service dog.  I have interacted with too many service dogs to consider that.  Of course there are exceptions to every rule and there may be a service dog that could change my mind....    The ADA does not require "certification" or "license" of service dogs.  Some groups do "certify" but the validity of the certification is only as good as the group or trainer doing it.  That is part of the reason for my answer.

Since I live in one of those areas that would require a substantial drive to find decent Schutzhund training (nearest is a good 4 to 6 hours), I'm really interested in this.  I can and do train for obedience and agiltiy.  Herding is hard to find but not as hard as schutzhund (same with Tracking).  I can't remember when there's been a tracking trial within 300 miles of my area (if ever).  My SAR unit will let me train with them occassionally but they do not permit any dogs with protection training to join the team so that becomes an issue as well.

So where does someone in my position really test my dogs' potential?  I would love to do schutzhund but it just isn't realistic and I don't know enough to do it on my own.

You can do agility and tracking on your own to find out what your dog can do.

I thik the question is do you think a police dogs training. or a SAR would be good enough to substute for a schutzhund title for breeding.

I say no because the k9 programs and SAR programs where not developed with breeding in mind.

I would use a dog out of any venue, but I would put it through my own battery of tests before it got a seal of approval. There are dogs in every sport or venue I would and wouldn't breed to, I am sure. Title means nothing to me and lack of title the same. It's the individual dog, his reactions or lack thereof are what count. I have seen too many good dogs that can't title because of the owner or a training issue. If a dog is too "hard" to title, that's the dog you should be breeding to because chances are the mate you put to it, isn't as hard as it should be. Same with the dogs that don't score the highest points.

The SV has some very good steps in place but they also have a few holes in there. No set of rules can be full proof 100% of the time. They have some great guidelines to go by. However when you keep lowering your standards, your not going to go anywhere but down. PSA has some much more stable dogs, can take corrections, the threat, lots of pressure or they don't even get a 1 title. I'm seeing too many SchH 3's that can't stay on the bite with a full calm grip to save their lives. Too many dogs snaking by on the skin of their teeth and because he got that title, he will be bred. This is a breeder issue not a venue issue though. Could happen in Ringsports, working K-9's, PSA or anything else out there. I just feel more confident in a dog that passed in anything but SchH. Schutzhund is where the $ is and where the $ is, corruption is never far behind.

Bottom line, if I can't see the dog work how I'd like to see him work, regardless of titles, he isn't worth breeding to, title or no! I'd also like to see that dog when he is relaxed, how he is with strangers and other dogs. Of course any health info you can get on a dog is bonus. Minimum, hips and elbows certed.
 

I must be one of the "blessed" I have more Sch clubs than I care to count within 3 hours drive and many are VERY good clubs. 3 SchH clubs within an 45min drive. We also have PSA and French Ring, 25 minutes and and 1.5 hrs drive. I thank my lucky stars for that all of the time and glad I am able to take the opportunity to drive around meeting new dog people. Everybody has something  you can learn from.

I'm pretty lucky too, as my Schutzhund club is an hour and a half away to train.  Plus countless other clubs to go to for trials.  Plus a couple of well known private trainers as well within a reasonable distance for some "extra" training.  I also have a place to go herding that is an hour and a half away.  Without these places within such reasonable distances I don't know that I'd be able to train/title my dogs. 

I also enjoy going to various different places to meet new people.  :)

I'd love to add herding, or at least watch, maybe check my dogs instincts. Anyone in the Nor Cal area do this?

It doesn't really matter does it?  There are plenty of people breeding dogs with no titles on either end, no hip certification etc.. and they're still selling the puppies - so in the end it only will matter to the buyer right?

If I want a dog from an SV Standard breeding then I will get a puppy from that - and I will not consider anything else.  If a breeder isn't close enough to SchH train then I won't consider a breeding from them - pure and simple - as a buyer, it's my choice.  If they still want to breed GSDs then they can - it's their choice and it's mine to shop elsewhere.  If I want a GSD and I don't even know what SchH is then I won't know any better....

If a breeder says their dog is this or that and has nothing to back it up (no titles, no xrays, no breed survey) then breeders are all equal (BYB and non SV standard breeders).  I'm probably not making myself clear - but if someone breeds a dog because "it's a great dog" then as a buyer I have to (or should) consider the source of the information.  Most all breeders think their dogs are wonderful and many breeders I've seen have limited space & resources to have non-breed worthy dogs.  They also have time and emotions invested so are they really going to tell you that their dog is not "a great dog"? 

I know many here ague that SchH titles can be bought (still trying to figure out where to send my PayPay $$ to get one!!) - but at lease if you find a breeder you trust, you should be able to trust that the titles were earned fairly and that the rest of the information that you can see on paper (other titles, xray results, breed surveys etc..) are also genuine and not just the opinion of the breeder.  It's when a breeder can do all this with a dog and still NOT breed it that I think I would respect the most. 

So basically breed what you want and let the buyer decide what's good enough for them.

 JMHO:

       The dog MUST be schutzhund-titled and I must have the opportunity to see it work ( as a means of perhaps determining how much of that title was training/handling and how much was the basic dog) AND I must have the opportunity to evaluate the temperament of the parent/breeding partners.  If I cannot do this, I would certainly rely on the opinion of individuals I trust AND who know what I look for.

      Keep in mind, that up until just a couple of years ago, one of the most desirable studs in the US was a Sch 1, not a 3--Tarzan.  Why?   Because it was clear what the dog had, training aside.   Also, he "proved" that title-worthiness by what he produced.  I know that seems assbackwards, but my point is that the dog proved his "breed-worthiness" by eanring a title ( Sch 1) and those who saw the dog "saw" a  Sch III dog, waiting to title.  

       The fact that a dog is a working police dog does not equate to "title equivalent" to me.   Not all of them are of the "typical" caliber of the RCMP's dogs.  I have seen up close and personal TOO MANY working police dogs with questionable temperaments and/or nerve problems.  In fact, at one point in time, schutzhund people  seemed to have "dumped" their questionable dogs off on police departments.  Many of the police departments have staff unable to discern the difference between a strong, tough dog and a nervy dog with a  temperament problem.  

     A herding title is nearly meaningless to me, aside from the fact that only one or two clubs in the entire country host HGH trials. 

    Service dog? HELL, NO!!  Those are the dogs in the  gsd litter that NO ONE wanted for schutzhund, because of a lack of drive, nerve, ability, etc. 

    Agility?  Only if we are talking about border collies or Jack Russells.  Then, I care about agility titles.

JMHO