Solid black out of two sables? - Page 1

A while back there was a discussion on color and I am having trouble locating it. I am wondering if it is possible to get solid black puppies out of two sables. The sire to the litter has approximatley 100 progeny and has been bred to different colored females and has never produced any black puppies. I don't know  what the female has produced. The fathers paternity is in question and I am  looking for some information on whether this is possible. Thanks!!

Kristen

Yes, it is possible to get blacks out of two sables if both carry the recessive for black.  Has the male ever been bred to a black female? 

Yes it is possible.  for some reason people have a hard time understanding that.  When I had a litter out of two sable parents, we got 5 sable pups and 3 black/tan pups.  the sire carried the black gene but my female did not, so we had no black puppies.  I had people ask me if I was sure who the sire was since we had black/tan puppies.  It is simple color genetics.  The black/tan pups got that gene from my female and the black gene from the sire (therefor they had to carry the black gene recessively). 

If both parents are sable and carry black recessively, you can get black puppies.

www.ehretgsd.com/genetics.htm#ColorBasics

To my knowledge he has never been bred to a solid black. I thought I read somewhere that a dog can only carry either a black or a bi-color gene, not both. The sire has produced bi-colors. Thank you darylehret for the chart.

Then use the aw+at column for the sire.  Blacks wouldn't be possible, no matter what he's bred to.

I have a solid black female whose parents were both black & reds!!  There were 3 solid black pups in that litter. 

This is a black female I owned from a sable sire and bicolor dam.  To actually be a black dog, she had to be homogenous for black, one black gene from the sire and one from the dam.  So incidently, her dam was a bicolor that also had a black gene.

The black phenotype is very useful for identifying the genotypes of dogs throughout the pedigree, for the plain fact that it ONLY appears in its homogenous form.  If you look at this pedigree, you can see that there were no black dogs at all in her first two generations.  In the third generation, there were two black dogs out of the eight, Macho and Bambi.  Macho only had a black gene available to contribute, so Afra had a recessive black gene.  Bambi passed a recessive black gene to Bishara.  For Lexa to be a bicolor, you know she didn't receive Bishara's sable gene, which would dominate the bi-color phenotype that she is.  Therefore you are able to conclude that Lexa's sire, Marco, had a recessive bi-color gene.

This kind of puzzle work can be done easily if you apply the basic rules of dominance and look up the photo phenotypes in the pedigrees of the progeny, ancestors, and the siblings progeny.  In a similar fashion, the patterns of heredity can be applied to researching hip health of a potential breeding.

I didn't read your post very carefully earlier.  If the sire produced bi-colors, he could potentially be the aw+a genotype if bred to a bi-color female, or a sable or black&tan female with a recessive bi-color gene.  Doing some of the puzzle work I mentioned could give you further clues.  Try to determine the genotypes of the females he was bred with.  Did they produce blacks or bi-colors when crossed with different sires?

My only question re this chart is in reference to the Bi-colors. I know it has been postulated that they are "at" but I believe a number of people feel it is an "as" with modifiers layered.

Certainly there is no consistency about what people call bi's and I have heard some heated arguments about whether a particular dog is a bi or not. Some have face and cheek points or one of these only - some not. Some have pencil toes or muddy feet some not. Some have a small amount of tan on the legs some have tan right up to the elbow. Some have markings like a malmute- some not. Some have markings like a dobe or rotttie - some not.  Does this sound like one single loci? 

http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/edogs/ErichGrafenwerth.html    ;notice tan above the elbows on the next one http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/cdogs/CitoBergerslust.html  ;bi or b& t  ? on Arko  http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/adogs/ArkoSadowaberg.html   ; notice the throat latch on this dog - would have been considered a bi in his day  http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/mdogs/MajorNothmere.html        ;   Alert bi or bt? http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/adogs/AlbertMiNoah.html  ; http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/jdogs/JoryEdgetowne.html   ; yasko bi or bt look at thigh color  http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/ydogs/YaskoZenntal.htm   ; Gino the classic bi int the 60's http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/rdogs/RedRockGino.html  ; Does stomach hair coloring count  see tacoma vs next dog also tacoma had 2 bi bolor types behind him http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/BDOGS/BethesdaTacomaSiDon.html  ;  Spencer tho comes from a very classic bt pedigree  http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/idogs/InflightSpencer.html  ;  http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/cdogs/CaralandUnlimited.html  Notice black stripe down leg and limited amount of tan on legs - some dogs have even less tan and or have muddy feet . Also note lack of face, cheek and throat markings. http://www.sontausen.allk-9.com/ira.htm  ; sister to previous dog. also a bi but has chest bars http://www.sontausen.allk-9.com/ianna.htm   ;a relative notice how stripe goes almost all the way down leg http://www.sontausen.allk-9.com/nadya.htm

Looks to me only the last 5 are bi and I can't be sure of the 4th of the last 5. The rest look clearly blk/tan in my opinion.