What would you make of this? - Page 1

I have a sincere question -- one that will require, admittedly, interpretation from a distance.

My 6 month old male pup from Sch parents and lines has been raised, as well as I can, to be confident and able to give SchH competition a good try.  In part, this has meant not discouraging his play biting as forcefully as I might have in a dog destined to be a pet, or an OB dog.  He still bites at my shoes, pants, legs -- and those of my gf, as well, although she does discourage him (but not very forcefully).

Yesterday,  the pup, at large (not crated), went into his crate and got his paw stuck between the crate door and the wall of the opening.  He howled.  I was at work, and my gf (all 118 pounds of her) ran to his aid.  While trying she was trying extricate his paw, the pup apparently panicked (he was still howling) and bit her repeatedly on the hand, sending her to the ER.

My gf is being very kind about this and of course I feel awful.  But my questions are these:

1) what do I make of this?

2) what do I do about it?

As for the first question -- do you think his biting her as anything to do with his SchH background?  His upbringing?  Errors I have made somehow in raising him?  It seems to me that this was a fear-based event, but can I be confident that he did not bite her in part because I have not discouraged biting from the beginning? 

As for the second question, does this suggest the pup is not ScH worthy and should not be trained for competition?  What should I do to drastically reduce or eliminate the chance this will not happen again?  (I cannot yet get rid of the crate as he is still a ferocious chewer, despite a dozen toys strewn about.)

Thoughts?  Questions for me to help me figure this out?

THANKS

It means your pup was in pain and lashing out trying to free itself and may have mistaken your GF as a source of that pain. How you raise him has really no correlation. Poor puppy and girlfriend. I hope both are alright.

i think 4pack is right but i also think its part of his drive you hart me ill bite you good for his drive but bad for her hope the are alright

I'm very sorry your girlfriend got bit up but I wouldn't go blaming the pup yet.  I have been bit more than once by a dog in distress.  Once it was a sweet little 30 lb mutt  that was kicked by one of our horses.  I tried to lift her into our car and by the time I had her settled in, I was bleeding pretty heavily.  Her shoulder was shattered so I probably would have bit me too.

Then I was taken to the hospital after trying to break up a dog fight between one of my rescue dogs and my own personal dog.  It was my own dog that did the damage when the other dog has his foot in a death grip.  I still have those scars all over my leg.  I now just go in swinging chairs and hoping for the best.

When dogs are in pain and scared they will react very differently from the sweet dog you are used to seeing. 

4pack=good

I once tried to free a grizzly bear from a bear trap.  For some reason he wasn't too pleased.  He took a swipe and parted my hair.  I decided that the bear had control of the issue and I left it at that. 

Do you think the bear had SchH in his pedigree?  If he doesn't, why would he try to scratch and bite me?

Don, Don, Don, What a newbie call - that was obviously a Ring Sport bear.

That was a very normal reaction that you would get from just about any dog, any breed (even toy breeds will bite when panicked and in pain), any background, any upbringing. The dog cannot connect the dots that being freed by a person is a good thing in that situation. The pup was trapped, it was in pain, adrenalin surging, it was panicked, the person helping was probably also full of adrenalin (dogs know) and panicked. Moving the door could have also caused more pain to the pup in that moment causing that panic. Whatever happened, it saw the person as the cause of the pain at that moment and tried to flee, any which way. Normal. The only thing that could have prevented the bite to your GF would have been to take control of the situation, calm the pup and hold it still, tell it to stop, before removing the foot. That takes some experience to know and do.

A biting incident will not render a pup or dog useless for SchH. In SchH the dog learns control. It does not become a biting maniac because of SchH. That is not what is trained there.

What you should do is redirect the mouthing behaviour into something more appropriate for the pup to sink the teeth into. Have toys handy, balls, tugs, etc. If the pup grabs part of the body it is ok now to not let that get the upper hand. Acutally vital at this age. SchH is not allowing the dog to do what it wants, bites what it wants. In SchH the dog bites a specific target, the sleeve. At this age its time to set some ground rules for the pup. It is not ok for the pup to use its mouth on you or any other person. That will not diminish its SchH ability either, if done right. Redirecting the mouth to biting toys is the way to go here. Because apart from an ill fated panic moment, with the consistent mouthing the pup tests how far it can go and eventually it will turn into testing its dominance. Then you would have a real problem on your hands and one that will caues you a lot of headaches. So don't let it go that far. When pups play with each other or other dogs, they are quickly put into their place if they get too rough. You must do the same. Put the pup in its place swiftly and effectively and then show it that it is ok to bite into a tug instead, just not an arm, a let or shoes. Also, you are the one that initiates play, not the pup. So if the pup gets too pushy, it needs to be put on the naughty step for a while to chill. Time to take some control.

That was a very normal reaction that you would get from just about any dog, any breed (even toy breeds will bite when panicked and in pain), any background, any upbringing. The dog cannot connect the dots that being freed by a person is a good thing in that situation. The pup was trapped, it was in pain, adrenalin surging, it was panicked, the person helping was probably also full of adrenalin (dogs know) and panicked. Moving the door could have also caused more pain to the pup in that moment causing that panic. Whatever happened, it saw the person as the cause of the pain at that moment and tried to flee, any which way. Normal. The only thing that could have prevented the bite to your GF would have been to take control of the situation, calm the pup and hold it still, tell it to stop, before removing the foot. That takes some experience to know and do.

dammit

thats what i was gonna say

Thanks so much -- some of this is very helpful for me.  Even if I thought I had this sorted out, I didn't want to be guilty of just telling myself what I wanted to hear.  I am especially grateful for the sincere help that did not turn defensive.  I love shepherds but this pup is different than any of my past dogs: more mouthy, more immature, more vocal, more fearless, less inhibited -- and I just don't know if I have let things get out of control.

Important messages seem to be that (1) the fear basis means the bite had little to do with how I've raised him or who he is so I don't have to feel horribly guilty -- just yet, (2) he needed to be steadied before taking action and that's something I need to gently convey to my gf at the right time,  (3) it is past due for me to stop letting him attack my shoes, pants, etc. with me in them.   I am going to be much firmer about him being mouthy with my gf and even with me. 

May I ask another question?  I have two adult dogs -- both his size now -- and they have been and are both somewhat tolerant of him playbiting them (grabbing them around the neck, ear, leg, etc.)  My worries have been twofold: (a) is he learning to inhibit his bite with them and (b) is he learning to dominate them, as they havew been by their natures reluctant to really come down hard on him, and will that come back to haunt me later? 

My sense from your earlier answers is that SchH is in large part about learning inhibition, so I should be more worried about (b) and less about (a)?

Finally, how much risk am do you think I face with my not very big/dominant gf spending so much time with this huge, immature, and powerful pup?

I broke three vertebrae. When the medics lifted me to put me on the gurney I bit, swore, hit trying to get them to stop. I can honestly say that I would have gladly preferred to lay there until I died instead of be handled and caused that much pain. Lucky for me they saw it was for my best to move me. Good call considering where I was at the time.

I don't think it's realistic to hold anyone or any dog responsible for actions when it is helpless and in pain.