Saying Hail Mary's before typing this..... - Page 1

Even though I'm not Catholic! Okay, since there seems to be a brief window where we can discuss these things without bloodshed I have a question. It is not meant with any sarcasm or judgements. And please let responses be the same because I really want to know this without it getting sidetracked.

My question is based on this assumption: The standard hasn't changed. If that assumption isn't true then please disregard the rest of the post.

If the standard hasn't changed and it is basically a geometric design of a dog how can there be such diversity in the shape of these two lines? Each camp saying theirs is a replica of the standard? I'm probably (once again) missing some key yet very obvious point but isn't it like one person saying this is a mile while another says no, this is a mile? What I'm trying to say is if I go to the articles on conformation it is always very specifically measured with geometric shapes that begin and end at a very specific point on the body of the dog. Yet, the two lines are so very different in lining up with that standard.

How can this be?

I know exactly what you mean, I've had the same question in my head for a long time but was afraid to ask.  So...I'll just sit back with my popcorn and watch :o)

The "standard" is open to interpretation, for right or wrong. 

What do you consider a "gently sloping topline"?  Would I come to the same conclusion as you?  Perhaps not. 

What do you consider "working ability"?  And how differently would I answer that same question?

Think of this way... haven't you ever run into GSD folks with proud owners who brag that their dogs have a "ton of drive", and you look at them and think "nope"? 

There are many such ambiguities, both in structure and especially in temperament, which makes it difficult to agree on the "correct" dog.

Of course, there always will be those breeders who produce dogs outside the standard, and the buyers who are happy to purchase them.  And such it goes...

Yvette

DITTO!

Hand me some popcorn!>>>

Just as people interpret the Bible, teh Constitution or any other text to fit their personal agenda, so do breeders likewise "translate" the standard.

As to the standard changing, I think there have been a few minute changes - the raising of the height limit is one, but I'm sure others can and will chime in to refute or affim this.

After educating myself about the way the standard has been ignored, abused, and manipulated to create animals that don't even remotely reflect it, I've become a strong supporter of it, I don't see how a true admirer of this breed could not be, but I do think that as the years progress, the standard can and should be amended to reflect the advancements that have been discovered that make the animal more idea for the function Max originally deemed it for...Same way the Constitution has been ammended to reflect advancements in society.

Okay, so far this isn't scary .  So I'll venture a little further. The gently sloping topline and the Constitution are concepts that are interpreted, granted. But what about the finite angles and measurements of the standard?  Croup angle shoulder angle, that sort of thing? To me these seem very firmly applied with interpretations of the design within that angle coming after?  It's the actually measurements and angles represented by the triangles and lines that I'm more referring to.

Please don't eat me.

Dawgs

Probably it's very hard to breed dogs that match the exact measurements as well as many other parts of the standard and there lies both  the science and art of breeding.

Interpretation of something is relative to that persons point of view and is very subjective not objective.  If you look at Max's dogs, I do not see such extreme angulation that we are seeing today.  Somewhere it became more defined and has evolved into the extreme.  I don't see how the low croups and extreme angulation can do anything but diminish working ability.  It is not a mechanically sound rear end any more. 

I don't know why things always have to go to the extremes, but I would bet $$$ that if the statistics on HD were split between WL & SL we would see that the incidence would be much higher in the SL - common sense tells me this. 

JMHO as a new person looking in - sometimes new people see things that others deeply entrenched do not see - like trying to step outside the box to objectively look at something.

Excellent post Dawgs - I have been wondering the same thing for awhile now. 

Copied this from the USA breed survey info:

The croup should be long and have a slight downward slope (approximately 23 degrees from horizontal) and should merge smoothly into the tail set.

23 degrees is a lot less than what I see in alot of dogs.  Again JMHO

The Standard sure hasn’t changed and will not either. The diversity in appearance occurs for a reason known as economics! 

SchHbabe Yvette says, "Of course, there always will be those breeders who produce dogs outside the standard, and the buyers who are happy to purchase them.  And such it goes..." 

The simplest explanation from me would be thus: A breeder sets out with the right intentions to adhere by the written standard, as litters are born the working man chooses the best worker and he is willing to forgive a slight difference in appearance while the Show man picks the most handsome looking fellow and says he can educate the pup of what he lacks from birth! Thus the cycle has begun. Now comes the important point of interpreting the standard as per ones experience and assumption or fancy.

If a person is born in Africa one finds African women or Men attractive and says she/he is the most beautiful, while An Asian thinks what he/she has been accustomed to seeing and living with is the most Beautiful, While a European feels this is how a human must be. Hence the interpretation depends upon ones proximity to a particular type!!!! A working dog has the same angels but maybe in a different angle

A 90 Degree is a 90 Degree whichever way you turn it.... right?

The final beneficiary is Economics as there are buyers for both parties and each does not have to change or adopt anything different 

Here's the full link: http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/breed_standard.htm

Most of you probably know already - just posting it for the one's that don't.