Livers and blues - Page 1

One of the pictured ads that popped up on me tonight showed a liver/tan pup... and that got me wondering...

Livers and blues are double recessive genes, right?  So both parents must carry the gene to produce these diluted colors, right?

I know these colors are undesireable (except those breeders who try to pass it off as some rare and beautiful color) but is there any other genetic baggage that comes with the liver/blue pigmentation? 

Do livers/blues tend to have unusual health problems, temperament problems, etc.?  Other than washed out color is there anything "wrong" with these dogs?  (and I use that term loosely)

How long has this trait been around... since the beginning of the breed? or recent mutation?

Just curious to learn.  I have absolutely no stake in the outcome of this discussion.  I read Linda Shaw's article on pigmentation and the livers and blues are briefly discussed. 

Yvette

I don't know about livers or blues but I have seen pandas (same reinforced type of recessive supposedly) and that produces on UGLY mi-shapen GSD.

I don't feel like looking up the source right now (ADHD!), but I have read in the past about blue dobies

having BIG problems.......skin etc.....

OK  Back to the movie!!!   oops!!!   I know we're talking shepherds.............but.....

I believe in rich colors, that they would have stronger healthier genes, although, I also
would except a white shepherd with strong black points........

Sorry, back to the movie!!!!!!!

I am an owner of a liver/tan female.  Her parents and siblings had exceptional pigment.  very dark eyes and no pink pigment in the mouth.  very dark bi-colors.  The diluted colors can be affected by any health problem a standard colored gsd can have.  no, they are not predisposed for any problem strictly because of their color.  Now there is one problem that will affect them due to color, but it affects other breeds with diluted colors such as doberman, pomeranians, schipperke, chihuahua's, daschunds etc.  I believe it is CDA?  it causes the diluted hairs to be brittle and break, and can also cause bald spots where diluted pigment would be.  but it can be tested for, and easily bred away from.  

What we now call off colors have been around since day one and in fact were accepted in the original standards including what was translated as "pie balds" which most people have interpreted as merle since collie types were included in the mix. We also used to have the brindle gene.

As the breed was refined the "off colors" were DQ in the standard. The thinking is lost to history - desire for uniformity, belief they carried other problems with them etc who knows. The three off colors still present in the breed are white,blue and liver.

To my understanding neither liver or blue has the problems associated with those colors in other breeds. While it seems obvious that colors across dog breeds should be related - they often are not having different modes of expression and inheritance in different breeds - i.e. they arose from separate sources.  Thus white is associated with deafness in collies and some other breeds but not GSD.  And the Isabella in Dobes which is a blue comes with a spectrum of health issues and skin problems which are not normally found  in blue shepherds.

Re the "pandas" and I really do not want to start a long discussion about them and give them more free publicity but a couple of things if I may.

The breeder is very insistent that DNA analysis was done on the sire and dam and that Davis(?) determined they were the sire and dam and that ergo it has to be a spontaeous mutation. Well whoever did the "Dna analysis" - shame on them. All they determined was that A and B were the parents of C. There was never ANY determination to my knowledge that A and B where in fact pure GSD and had not been mixed with something else. The breeder claims to rely on pedigrees for this. Well lady just read up on the amount of pedigree fraud in the world. I  had private email discussions w/ a well known dog geneticist and his suspicion was that there had been prior cross breeding in part because of the lack of type in the dog. Just the other night while searching for something on one of the shepherd web boards one of the members had a picture of her dog posted which was a cattle dog x shepherd cross  and walla you were looking at a "panda" shepherd. Meant to save the link but stupidly forgot to and now can't find it. Plus I'm just a little suspicious of the speed w/ wh/ the lady went into the business of hawking her "rare"dogs despite earlier saying of course she would not denegrate the breed like that. - Also had private email correspondence with her. But quick she was and voluminous from what I can see. And I agree I do not think they have correct or good shepherd type. There is a coarseness and stockiness which is not assoc w/  GSDs.

If I interpret Willis correctly, a liver colored dog has the genetic make-up of bb, meaning that only the black colour is effected (B), not the tan. In order to get this appearance, both parents must carry the recessive. For example, in the GSD a carrier would have to be Bb and meet up with another carrier Bb to produce a liver-coloured dog bb. In 1976, Willis expressed a view that liver might be lethal, but later rescinded that (page 38 and 39). He states that several famous dogs have carried the liver factor, and I venture to say that it is still present in all lines, but rare. Not too many incidents occur, so there must not be too many carriers (Bb). I have seen it once.

Willis describes blues on page 40 in the D series (Dilution). It has the same principle as the liver colour. Most GSDs are DD (no carrier for the dilute gene), some are Dd (carriers). A blue GSD would be a dd. I have never known one.

Chris

I just re-read Willis' chapter entitled The Dilution or D series and am even more confused than before.   The only thing I kinow for sure is my head hurts and I have a lot to learn before I can even consider ever breeding GSDs!!!!

LOL Sue! Don't worry! Liver and blues are extremely rare - blues even more so than livers. Both parents have to be carriers, so it is a recessive. I had to readup on that, too. Thank goodness for great resources like Willis!

Chris

Also - Dr. Sponenburg talks about it in the Genetics of the Dog - livers arent known to carry any genetic diseases or problems in the GSD, and while follicular dystocia is common in blue dobies, it has occured only VERY rarely in the GSD (it somehow relates to black hair follicular dysplasia if I recall - its alot worse in the blues).  Most of this is off the top of my head though so dont quote me on it :p

~Cate

Nice!  Excellent discussion!  Thanks for the clarification!

Yvette