A lesson in vetting - Page 1

I am not sure which astounds me more - that our breed seems to attract such a plethora of con men and out right liars or that people are so incredibly naive about life that they are easily (constantly, repeatedly??) taken in by them. I can not decide if they are merely gullible or lazy and don't do their homework. The optimist in me feels that perhaps they don't know how to critically assess the information they have and find resources for further information. So in that spirit I will offer  some simple tips that hopefully newbies to this board can use to their advantage.

Vetting is a term used in the intelligence community for digging into a person's background to see if they check out. May I suggest it is well worth your effort to do some simple "vetting" before undertaking transactions in the dog world. Thru the web we now have at our fingertips resources ( not all accurate or good keep that in mind) that historically would have taken days, weeks, months to develop. The steps  I will  outline below I used merely to verify information about one of the posters on this baord and her statements made to the board. However these same steps can be used to verify information regarding a possible business transaction.

When responding to a specific post I sometimes want to have a better understanding of whom I am responding to, or I want to confirm a claim or statement they have made or something has peaked my interest either positively or negatively. My interest got peaked tonight on another thread "How do you price working puppies"  by some exchanges posted by  EkvonEarnhardt. The thread can be found here http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/66498.html#150768  but I am going to copy and past the three replies that sent me on my quest so you will have some understanding of why and what I went looking for.

At 21:11 Ek posted this   Boy that is depressing to hear. So what would my puppies go for.
Clarice vom Ramhausen CGC,TDI,RN DNA, Prelimbed Good (x-ray due soon) ready for her FD, FDA, PD1 and BH
By the way she is doing human tracking (police style and finding weed and coke)
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/444580.html 
and Hanibal vom Ramhausen CGC TDI 2 majors for his UKC CH, 1 leg for his RN, DNA and Prelimbed Excellent Will be ofa in Feb) Ready for his FD, PDA, PD1 and BH and
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/466550.html   

At 2:11 Buffy posted this in obvious response to Ek's post. 

I love people that "prelim" dogs and think those count as good as OFA or A stamps, and talk about how their dogs are "ready" for titles, but aren't titled yet...but "easily" could be because "everyone's told me so".....rubbish.
Until your dogs have hips and elbow done, titles, and breed surveys, you shouldn't be breeding. Period.
That's my opinion. (And a lot more like me.)
One person found it "depressing" to hear their backyard operation wasn't gonna make them rich quick enough. There are simply too many people breeding for money and cutting corners. You breed and breed and water down the German Shepherd to line your pockets with money from taking the easy route. It's disgusting. Breeders like you are part of the problem and not part of the solution....

At 3:11 Ek posted back  Mrs buffy you could of just addressed me personally I am not going to break down and cry because of your OPINION. it is just that.. an opinion

My dogs will be OFA and SV rated before breeding takes place was not planning on breeding before then. I was stating that I have taken the extra measures to ensure I was not wasting 2 years on two dogs for bad hips scores. If you read OFA site you will learn that they state hips done after 12 months have a high % rate of staying good or excellent. As far as cutting corners I spent money on prelimbes and DNA tested all my dogs without AKC or SV telling me too. I just spent over 3000.00 on my vet bill in the last two months Please I spend more on my dogs then I will ever see in return. AND I don't breed the hell out of my dogs they are lucky if they see two litters and only have one a year if that! Not looking to make money off of my dogs I am a graphic design/web design by CAREER! dog money pays for trails and vet bills.
As far as ready for titles YES they are! just shows are not easy to find and have to wait until they come around. I have not been training for the last year for the hell of it.
I did not buy top dogs to "water down" the bred Please view pedigrees. My dogs are working dogs and I don't need a title to prove that. I do drug searches S&R and real life protection work were the dog is actually HIT" and the dog will bite even after the sleeve is tossed. Hell they will bite hidden and leg or shoulder or ... So please don't tell me I am water down the bred. SchH "was" a way to test dog but IS now a sport for the dogs

I think I know where you're going with this.  shepherdcentral.com/viewtopic.php

This was followed by 2 short posts one from Ek      OH by the way a friend just pointed out to me that I sound like I have a litter on the ground right now FACT: My bitch comes in to heat until early next year! she is turn two at the end of this month.  So My point was I do have "titles" and wanted to see if they were only worth 500.00.

and then from buffy    "EK,your post sounded as if these were pups on the ground....and Desert, I agree there are many good service dogs that don't have titles, and don't need them to be good service dogs. But we were talking about breeding and lots of good service dogs, aren't breed suitable for one reason or another. Some are.
My point is just that some people try and shortcut the work and time it takes to insure our best chances of successful breeding....all of these steps give us the chance as a breeder to evaluate the overall good and bad points and make a decision to breed or not to breed  "                 At this point the thread devolved into one of those interminable pointless arguments about the need for titles.

Now I like buffy thought Ek first post certainly did sound like the litter was on the ground wh/peaked my interest. So I started by clicking on the links she had included in her post. What did I find? Remember now this is what Ek stated "My dogs will be OFA and SV rated before breeding takes place was not planning on breeding before then" and she noted that Hanibal would be OFA in Feb. Well his page showed that in fact he was already 2.5 years old so old enough to be OFA's last spring not next and when you click on progeny for either Clarice or Hanibel what we find is that there IS a litter on the ground - DOB 10/25/2007 AND EVEN BETTER had done the exact same breeding exactly 6 months before. HMM wonder about the bolded statement  above. So we already have not one but three separate lies. 1. there was a litter on the ground 2. the statement she had no intention of breeding before OFA/SV ratings and when the bitch was over two and 3. the lie of ommision that in fact she had also bred a previous litter from this pair. By the way all of this can be confirmed at her website - see http://www.ek-9s.com/BoogiePage.html  and  http://www.ek-9s.com/puppies.html.

Now my next step was to click on her user id. Reading previous posts can help you get a feel for the person.  I also look for comments they have placed and ads because they all give me information about the person's knowledge and business practices. Finally I look for an email address. Even when it is bogus people often trip themselves up by including personal info that when searched reveals their tru identity.

My next step is to take some of the info I've gathered an go back out to the web and some search engines. I usually start with the email address 'cause often that's the easiest. In this case in google it merely brings up two of her posts here so is a circular loop. So then I deconstruct the email address trying different elements and in this case because Ek is open about her id walla I came up with her website. Now frequently people are not open about their id and you need to do a bit more sophisticated hunting.

I find it very interesting that for someone who proclaims that there is no need for  titling a dog that her website consistently and blatantly promotes her dogs based on all the titles that their ancestors have. She also makes many many claims about the training her dogs have but I find it interesting that she herself offers certification for CGC and TDI's which are always two of the three "titles" she presents ( by the way they are not titles). Just for the heck of it I went to the akc.org site and could not confirm the CGC status on either Hanibel or Clarice but somehow that didn't surprise me. The one "title " her dogs do have it a RN or rally novice. Now folks this is done entirely on lead with as much handler help as you need to give tho Ek calls it "complex" training on Clarice's page. No off lead work at all. Me wonders how we manage "protection" training if we can not event train a dog to a simple Bh or CD level which requires some off lead work. As you all know Schutzhund and protection is about obedience in drive. Drive alone gets you nowhere.

The level of deception continues thru her website. For example on this page http://www.ek-9s.com/cleapage.html  she talks about Clea one of her first dogs. She states she is a Champion and if you search the web you will find this claim repeated by some of her puppy buyers. Now in North American the title Champion implies an AKC champtionship. A championship from any other venue is distinguished by ASCA CH or CKC Ch or U-Ch for a UKC title. If you check the AKC records she is NOT an AKC champion. Now Ek can not claim she does not know this convention because she in fact uses the U-Ch on Hanibel's page on this database. Now I do not know if Hanibel is a U-Ch or if Clea is some other kind of champion because I really don't care and I saw no further need to verify anything she states since the evidence certainly was mounting re her ability to prevaricate. 

Another tool I use that is helpful in confirming information and sometimes pedigrees is the OFA website at offa.org.

I did notice the thread and comments from EK were dated Nov. 2006.  So looking at her site a year later could give an impression of the thread not being accurate..........

BTW, I'm not taking any sides here, and I agree researching somebody is always a good idea.  Not always accurate though as a couple here seem to get threads pulled anytime their questionable practices are discussed.  And adds can be deleted by the person submitting them so not always a history to see.

In this case while it did confirm Clea's OFa status it also told me she was OFA'd at 5 eyars of age well after producing anumber of litters and three years after producing a dsyplatic puppy.

There is one last area which really gives me concern. Ek in her posts and on her website CONSTANTLY promotes the fact that her dogs are trained in narcotic detection. Again from above "I do drug searches S&R ". Now do you know how hard it is to have the proper licenses to do that?? Yet I see nothing on her site that references a DEA license to have such narcotics for training purposes tho she references both "weed" and coke" ( I love the scientific nomenclature) . I also do NOT find ANY information that tells me how she would have the skill, experience, talent and access for such training. Usually people who are training such dogs have a pedigree as long or longer than their dogs in terms of their experience and background for the work. Once again I have to wonder are people really so easily taken in by such claims that they don't look for the provenance?

So why did I go thru this exercise? I just want the users of this board to be clear about taking NOTHING on face value and to question EVERYTHING espcially when it doesn't add up. So what harm some will say if she lies in her posts and on her website that's her business. Wrong it is our business because it is our breed to protect and preserve!

Be clear I am not prescribing or promoting "regulation" or a blind lockstep following of anyone's breeding program even the SV's. This is America and yes people get to make their own decisions good bad or indifferent but for the Ek's of the world - don't piss on us. At least have some honesty about what you do. The need to lie tells me you KNOW what you're doing isn't right. Anyways the bottom line always always is Caveat Emptor - buyer beware.

 Ek had good dogs and she works them. I have seen  pictures and video to back it up. I believe she cares about her pups and where they go.I have seen many  high powered dogs that were sold from" top breeders"  to some average Joe that could not handle them  just to sell a pup.In some towns or cities it is very hard to find a PSA Sch club to train with. Rally  and other AKC trials are cheaper and a person can train by themselves for. As for OFA I personally see no problem breeding on a prelim. Dogs in Europe are xrayed at a year and rated.I in fact have 0 problem asking to see xrays or a picture of a xray instead of a OFA report..If someone was interested in a pup or young dog pick up the phone and give her a call. I am sure if someone had any questions on on her breeding goals, dogs or herself she would be glad to explain it to them personally. Some of you folks here seem to enjoy raking people over the coals. It is possible that she did not feel up to a bashing today. Opinions are like @ss holes everyone has one. Myself included

Animules, thank you for pointing out the date but just let me state two things - 1.  as noted ont the original thread to Peter  Peter, This first appeared on my bulletin list tonight and I saw the Nov 27 and presumed it was today since why else would it be popping up on the current message board. I did not go looking for it or search for it. It was just there on the board so either the db entered the above dates wrong or it has a glitch which caused it to pop up on the current message list. Also the original poste of that thread had another one posted on 11/26/2007 re pricing for a breeding female wh/ I had jsut read and seemed to be a related thread. Course that's what I get for forgoing sleep makes for stupid mistakes HOWEVER

 2. If the original dates were 2006 not 2007 It actually makes it worse for Ek because in that year she could have qualified her dogs as she stated she was going to. Didn't do it.  Keep mind her website is current ( 10/25/2007 litter) , AKC and OFA's records are all current and yet there is no evidence STILL of any thing that she claimed.

Finally re the ads being deleted a useful trick is to search google for the ad and you can usually pull up a cached copy of the ad.

VKFGSD, sometimes people stumble across an old thread and respond to it bringing it back up.  It happens often here.  No glitch in the system, this one just happened to be the same month except a year ago.....

Again, I do agree people should do all they can to research who they are buying from.  It is sad that so many threads here have disappeared when breeding practices are discussed.