Tie out and whip - Page 1

      I have an old classmate who recently started taking his dog to a fairly new USA club in Richmond, Virginia. He tells me he's done lots of obedience with his dog for a year until doing any prey drive promotion. He can't get his dog to focus on any helper now because all his dog does is look back at him.

     Now the problem, or suspected problem, is that he goes to this club and they have him tie his dog out to a post while a helper works the dog. The "helper" or "training director" tells him to get out of his dogs site. Then the "helper" gets a whip out and cracks it over the dog while trying to force a bite. Could this type of training be somewhat like table training or pinning a dog against a fence? Is this considered putting the dog into "defense drive"? "Fight or Flight"? What are the usual outcomes for the dog with these types of training? Complete avoidance? I told him that this sounded a little shady and recommended another club in his area.

     I know very little about this style of training, and am curious if I did right by telling him that it wasn't a good place to train. It just seems like they are really trying to force the dog into doing something he'd rather not do.

     I'd appreciate any input, recommendations or advise.

          Thanks,

                  Chris

The dog has no idea of what's being asked of it. It's in the process of being ruined. Who knows what they will do to it next to try to get it to bite??? There is no way a dog should know to bite something by having a whip cracked over it's head. There is no relationship there for the dog to understand.

Find a training situation where a young dog is taught to bite actively in prey and go from there. There are two trainers no too far away that can work the dog correctly.

I advised him to go to Armin Winkler's club in Palmyra.  Where is the other safe place?

     i think he should have his confedence built up before a helper just tries to put the dog into figh or flight that could totaly wreck a dog just start out with some prey first

I have seen this done to a dog in a working line club...my first thought was, they are not touching my dog!

The man now has so many problems with this dog..he is so out of control, unpredictable and has bitten many peopl. 

NOt the best way to go about training...IMO

You must first understand the concepts of Prey Drvie and Defense Drive work...and then you can go on and know what should and must be done with your dog...First of all the post is a great idea particularly with your dog...You must get the dog to have his full attention on the Helper...and not the Handler...so the post is a very good tool...The problem comes next with what the Helper is trying to do with the dog...There's nothing wrong with using a whip to get the dogs attention but a young dog must be worked in Prey Drive first...so the drives can mature and when they're mature and the dog has enough experience in handling the work...they can Slowly be introduced to Defense Drive work...

So the problem is multi-layered...Young animals, in the wild, must have Prey Drive to catch their dinner...but are not old enough or mature enough to handle something coming and attacking them...They won't be able to protect themselves until they get older and mature and can handle Defending themselves...So the same formula is needed and should be followed in training our dogs to work...If Defense work is introduced too early to a young dog...the dog will be harmed in a way that they probably will never be able to recover from...So Defense work must be only taught or introduced when the dog is mature enough to handle it and then only in small doses so they can learn to handle it and comprehend it...and then to be able to use it to protect themselves...

~Bob~

Good post , DOG1 and I agree..   VB

This story is like so many others when they ask for help with training ideas. There is just not enough information given in this scenario for anyone to determine if they are correct or wrong with the training. All that  wrote about this seriously shocked me because of their quick responses without being there or seeing the situation.I thought Qman was going to hit the subject correctly but he kinda left a few holes in this to me as well.

We don't know if the dog has prey drive or how old the dog is at the time. How long have they worked the dog in prey is very important as well. To say they are doing something wrong isn't something i can say at this time. This dog could have been worked in prey for the whole yr its been traing with no success. The next course after that is defenese.This dog could bite but when shown some threat come off the bite.  The tie and post has had lots of great success with many dogs. What we all didnt mention is the quality of the dog as well. I would venture to guess if they are going to this type of training with the dog then the next step is to stop trying to title this dog. Not every dog is capable of getting a sch title.  Some Owners don't want to accept their dog is crap so i and many other helpers keep trying to figure out someway to get the dog to bite when in fact we should tell them to come back when they have a dog worth training.

If the dog bites in prey and doesn't come off during a drive then the pole isn't neccessary. If it however doesnt bite and does infact come off during the threat then the pole maybe the only choice.  I woudl take the dog for a second opinion but also prepare the owner for the fact he may have a dog that just isnt cut out for sch. Yes i'm sure you will say its parents and all grandparents are titled and blah blah blah but that means nothing. He must have what it takes to do it and im doubting if he does.

All training techniques have work and been successful but that doesn't mean that they work for all dogs. 

Just my opinion in this matter.

ceddy

There is not alot of information presented.  But the information provided is quite alarming.  This method trys to get the dog to bite out of fear.  If the dog is biting out of fear it is not thinking.  Next the dog can become very distrustful of strangers and can create an indescriminate biter.

This dog may not have the tools to do this type of work.  There are ways of coming to this conclusion without seeing if the dog will defend itself.  I would find another trainer for another evaluation.

Kyle

I read this post and your next post as well.   I would stop using this trainer.  Your dog already has damage.

If you dont know what good training looks like at least read a few books about it so your not going into a situation like this blind.

William Koehler was an author of several books.  I am sure you can find many others.  Someone here can probably recommend a few others.

Anytime fear tactics are being used your in trouble. And training cannot be rushed, you have to build up to bite work.

I hope you stop this abuse and find another way, good luck.