A historical question re Jello von der Wienerau - Page 1

I have noticed an increase of breedings showing linebreeding on Jello which I personally find a bit of a scary thing and have to wonder if people understand exactly what they are linbreeding on.  Regardless of that I have some questions re information on him which is available on this website and also across the web.

His pedigree here states he was VA1 but does not list date or venue. I have seen other listings elsewhere that also claim he was VA4 in Germany. To my knowledge he only V'd in Germany - which is correct?

If in fact he went VA1 where and when was it?

Again to my knowledge he came to the US in 1993 went to the USA Sieger show ( I believe in Bakersfield) and if memory serves right was run off the field in the courage test earning an "M".

The next year 1994 in Va/D.C at the USA sieger show there were again problems with his work resulting in him being put back to a SG1. The German judge was very bitter about the USA regulation which required this and ponitficated about it .

believe the next time Jello shows up in USA Sieger results is as winner of the veterans class. I could not find the results from the WDA shows of the time but if that is where he got the "va1" rating wyou would think there would be some mention of it somewhere.

I have noticed many if not most of the breedings w/ Jello carry crosses to Cello and Fanto. I'm presuming this was an effort to shore up the character and temperament?  Where is it felt that Jello's deficiencies in these areas came from? What were his littermates and relatives like?

Now know I will probably be jumped all over for asking these questions and just let me say I understand what part of the appeal of the dog was.  He was gorgeous and one of the best movers I've seen in GSDs. At the 1994 Seiger show there were a lot of conversations about the appeal of trying to grab some of that w/o getting slammed in the temperment department - not disimiliar at all to what American breeders did with the K litter Waldesruh. Problem is the craziness of the K litter seemed to persist in many of their descendants.

I was there in 1994, as it was my club hosting that Sieger Show. I remember very vividly how rainy it was. As a matter of fact, it was pouring down rain. My husband showed our own male in the working class (he ended up with V-8, a year later VA-5). Yes, Peter Arth (the SV judge) was very unhappy, rightfully so, but not because he had to put Jello into the SG-1 position. He too believed that he should have passed, so did Lothar Quoll. Both told me personally that they would have passed Jello and that any other judge in Germany would have as well. Jello bit decently but started circling around the helper (not leaving him) when his owner Ron came. He did not deserve that "sufficient" rating (it was sufficient, not insufficient) and we all could not believe that Bill Fields, the protection dog judge did that.  Nowadays, dogs with lesser bitework pass with a "pronounced" rating. I did not know Jello and his owners before the SS 1994, but that is when we all met and have been friends ever since. Jello is now long dead and gone and so is his son Lars, but all the breeders here in this country made a sad mistake not to use him more often, including me. But back then, I did not have the kind of females I have now. My one and only female was bred to him and had a super daughter (Isa vom Silbersee) who received a few first places and a top placement in one of Germany's regional championships as well. Unfortunately, she did not get her a-stamp in Germany, one of our worst downfalls. I took her home with me and placed her in a wonderful home. She lived her life out on a horse farm in Virginia. Her sister Inka had super hips and a-normal, but she was not in the same class as Isa was. Go figure! I still have a photo of Isa hanging in my office.

As to linebreeding on Jello, why do you think it is wrong? I would do that in a heartbeat, as he was a top producer. There is absolutely no problem in his line with temperament or bitework. Don't forget that he is a Fedor-son, and Fedor has always been mentioned for good bitework. I can also personally vouch for Jello's temperament. It was impeccable. Back then, we went to a lot of shows (no kids to tie us down) and in any show, Jello always placed V-1, Charlie Starr had a male owned by Bill Fleischer who used to get V-2 and we had our Sam vom Haus Burow with a V-3.

Lots of dogs are linebred on Jello, please go and check the listings. 1708 dogs are listed here on the PDB: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/reverse_linebreeding.html?hund=101 Many of them are top dogs. I believe Jello produced better daughters than sons. The only true son of note was Hanno, of course. Because of him, you have all these linebreedings on Jello.

Jello was V-4 at the 1992 German Sieger Show, not VA-4. And I am 99% sure that his VA-1 rating was from Mexico.

Chris

I had a Jello grandson (also fedor linebred)  that was, an still is, to this day, the hardest dog I have ever owned. Any of you who have ever owned a dog with strong defense knows how easily they can be misread. And no, his prey drive was not lacking at all, that dog would've gone through a flaming brick wall for a tennis ball, he was a very intense, but calm dog.

Korry and Korporal Waldesruh, now that's a blast from the past. I remember seeing Ravenhaus's Noah right after he came back to Wayne Greens having gone select from Winners Dog class. God how the time flys.

we have a lars son by a jeck daughter. he will be 9 in jan.  fabulous, fabulous dog.  completely trustworthy around children of all ages, other dogs and small animals.  he is also quite beautiful to look at.......very much like lars and jello.  because he had one ***shallow hip socket, we chose not to train schh with him even though his obedience is quite nice and his grips were full and calm.  he inherited some wonderful herding ability from one of his ancestors.  we did not even attempt to "train" this, but just watched him around the goats and it became evident very early on that he had some skill in that area so we did use him from time to time to round up goats and run them in.  let me add that herding goats is not nearly as easy as sheep.  goats can be subborn and will stand up against a dog if they've a mind to.

at one time, i had axel's pedigree on the database.  someone removed it or changed it.  presumably the owner of his litter mate, alex.  they probably wondered by someone had posted their dog's pedigree and "mis-spelled" the first name.  :) anyway, here is the pedigree for axel's brother, alex.  kennel name is also mis-spelled.  it should be deutschland direkt.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/477950.html

the only comment i would make to those considering a linebreeding on jello would be this:  watch the size on those dogs!  axel was 28" at the shoulder in his prime.  it's much harder to keep dogs sound if they get too big.  better to be more compact - less chance of injury.

i would also add that axel is our only showline dog.  the others are all workingline/sport dogs.  i truly see merit in both camps and though i am not an advocate of the "golden middle" i do think there is some benefit in judiciously using a dog from the other camp to retain or reintroduce a trait that is being lost or needs strengthening.  JMHO.

***his dam had a high zw#.  i have no reason to believe either lars or jello contributed to the hip problem.

Gustav  What can I say. I was only a bit more than a twinkle in my dad's eye went I got the shepherd bug .  I think I'll start a separate thread called down memory lane 'cause like to ask you some questions but don't want to divert this thread.

Kc and Ziegan  rather than making the point that there is nothing to worry about in the temperament/character with Jello, I think you make my point.  Lars was out of a Cello daughter. For the Axel/Alex litter he was bred to a very tightly linebred bitch ( w/ a number of lines to dogs that I feel bring good working ability) who also was loosely line bred on Wilma K who brings in Bodo Lierberg whose influence was very persistent for several generations. Ziegan, the herding ability does not surprise me at all. The Lasso/ Quanto lines that I know seem to have preserved great herding ability. Again I think this is coming more from the dam line.

Silbersee, I appreciate your point of view esp since you spent time with the dog , however, different eyes - different impressions.  I was at both the Bakersfield and DC shows.  Now I won't necessarily disagree with you're statement  "Nowadays, dogs with lesser bitework pass with a "pronounced" rating" but the problem is I think that is shameful. I was horrfied at a breed survey last year with the "quality" ( rather the lack of) of the work that was allowed not only to pass but be given a pronouced. The dogs were literally being fed the sleeve and still there were problems that were just ignored. Until the judging gets real there nothing will change. That being said they were not all that tough at any Seiger show I have been either and the "M" was not ever lightly given. The reality is in Bakersfield the dog ran off the field. Now in fairness to him I believe he had only been in this country a very short time so maybe he should not have been shown ( tho dogs travel to the worlds all the time). Then we come to the following year.

I too remember the rain AND the lightening. Were we on the edge of a hurricane? It certainly seemed that way.  I do not know what Arth said in private but what I heard him say in his critique was he disagreed with the USA rule which forced him to put Jello back because of the sufficient rating (not disagree with the rating but the rule) My personal view of Jello is tinged by something totally different that I saw. When I arrived prior to the working dog class, I noticed a group of people in the grooming tent circled around a dog as if  "protecting" him. In the middle of the circle was a very stressed and very unhappy dog. I do not know if it was the thunder and lightening or just life itself but it was very visible. I'm sure you can guess who the dog was - Jello. That combined with both years problems in the working tests is why it would worry me to linebreed on him. I also suspect that the other reality is a dog of his structural and movement quality doesn't get sold from Germany without a good reason.

Like I said different eyes - different view. Sorry about Isa. Isn't that always the way. Somehow nature always manages to find a way to kick us in the teeth. Did you ever breed the sister? Finally just curious do you know anything about Jello's littermates? Thanks for sharing.

Jello was not the only top dog in the litter, the whole litter was superb.  Joschy was a big , strong dog with a fantastic working ability, Janko was maybe the conformationwise best dog but he had problems in his bitework, Jade, their sister, was the best in the litter but didn't get the a stamp.  Jello was a dog with super bloodlines, he had a very good temperament and character.  People say temperament but mean bitework, he wasn't the strongest in bitework but usually did his job.  What he was was a terrific producer, even produced pretty well in the working area, probably because of his father Fedor.

VKFGSD,   i was not trying to argue your point, nor was i trying to make one of my own. hmmmm.  i was simply offering, for general information, some things about our dog that i thought others might benefit from.  i am very well aware of his line to cello and the working ability that comes with it.  after researching lars thoroughly, i felt they had made a good choice in paring jello with hila hasenborn for the L wilhendorf litter.  (see further discussion found in working abilites of cello)

i will also offer a bit more that i hope someone will benefit from:

i think, very often, that folks tend to look at an individual dog too much as a finished product and attempt to replicate it.  john was not even able to reproduce the L litter with the same breedings.  regretable, but an indicator of how strangely genetics work.  a further example of this replication theory is found in the hordes of people who breed to current winning dogs.  i have posted my feelings about this on this board and others.  it is far more productive to choose a male that conpliments the bitch than it is to have a helter skelter breeding program that changes annually, based on who happens to be winning at the moment.  i have also said before, one has to have a plan in mind that involves at least one or two generations down the road.  we cannot see where we are going by looking at our feet.  these dogs are not a finished product, nor will they ever be.  it is always a constant flux of change and that is why we must remain alert to the direction that the breedings are going.  we must take care not to lose that which is desireable and equally as careful about bringing in other traits.  getting back to this thread........jello and others certainly have something to offer, but once again i caution people not to look at the dog as a finished product.  be honest.  what are the dog's strengths and weaknesses?  what do i have to work with?  what do i need to bring in or get rid of?  what bloodlines will i be looking at one or two generations later?  just one more thing:  rather than trying to replicate the current winners of the day, take some time to delve into the genetics that produced that dog and the training that has developed him.

thanks for listening to my ramblings.  i guess i am fool enough to believe that any dog is good for something, but it is up to us to cultivate it.  :)

pjp