Long Coat/Plush Coat - Page 1

I'm buying a LH GSD in the new year. The dame is a long coat and the sire is a plush coat. The breeder is saying that all the puppies should be either long or plush coated. I was just wondering if this is true or not. As it's a recessive gene isn't it possible that there will also be short/normal coat lengths in this litter?

aye! me mate Krabs would like t' buy a coat o' each length for his wench Ms. Puff. She be teachin at t' drivin' school and needs t' look her best.

Hey capo go get a job at Disney, it's really freakin' annoying to try reading your posts!

thecouch,....yes there should be some shorter coats, but I doubt you'd see a real short stock coat.  Just pick the fluffiest teddy bear pup and you'll be alright, lol. 

Longer coats are recessive, but there is some partial expression to them even when not homozygous.

You would not expect SHORTER coats than the shorter parent.

The long coated dam (not dame) will throw a long coat recessive gene at all pups.

The plush coated sire may be homozygous plush, or he may be short and long and is showing plush.

In the former case, all the pups will be plush, as their genotype will be Plush x Long = Plush phenotype.

In the latter case, about half will be long coat, as some will be Long x Long.

1.Plush is an undefined term. The dog may or may not be a coat himself . He may or may not have a correct coat. He may or may not be what some will call a full coat. We do not know what is in his pedigree so without any of that info Bucko you can not predict the coat lengths of these dogs.

Some scenarios.

1.If the dog is normal coated and does NOT carry the long coat gene you should not get any coats. Coat length will be dictated by his GENOTYPE not his PHENOTYPE (what you see). Depending on what's behind him you could get and range of coat lenghts from slick to full.

2. If the dog is normal coated but carries the coat gene you will probably get some coats in the litter but keep in mind the statistical probabilities are over the life of the dog they do not neatly come out in each litter 25/25/50 or whatever. You might get an entire litter of coats or none at all and any normal coated dogs again could be a range of expressions depending what is behind the dog.

3. If the dog is in fact a coat and not merely "plush" then statistically the entire litter should be coats. Most GSD people believe there is only one coat gene making this a very simple mode of inheritance. After being in the breed for a very long time I do not personally believe this to be true. I think coat genetics and how they are expressed are more complicated than that but that's a discussion for another day.

Finally the statement that you should not expect shorter coats than the shorter coated parent is TOTALLY erroneous. Just as the owners of normal coated dogs and bitches who produced slick coats ( still defined as normal but a whole lot shorter than mom or dad).

Couch   If I may ask- it sounds like this breeder is deliberately trying to breed coats - is that true? If so why would you choose to buy from her/him? I am not against coats, I owned one who I loved dearly but plenty are produced in the normal course of events w/o deliberately breeding for them. The problem with breeders that go out on a tangent whether its coats or color breeding or whatever is they have then deliberately chosen to restrict their genetics in a time when we already have more than enough genetic problems from a very closed and bifurcated gene pool.

Trafaalgar,

Respectfully disagree with you and not from theory or books from the real life world and dogs I have known, seen or bred over 40 years.

First of all as I stated above "plush" is an undefined term but that being said I do not know of anyone would would define plush as "moderately short" as you did above. If that is the case why is it plush?

Secondly I specifically stated I was talking about "normal" slick coats which imputes the presence of an undercoat. If they did not have undercoat ergo they are not normal by definition. (I am very careful with my language). The slick coated dogs I have known have had perfectly normal undercoats some actually more dense rather than less.  A normal coated dog that I would call slick has slightly shorter OUTER hair that lies close and firm to it's body. What most of us refer to as a normal coat is one that is a bit more full meaning it stands out from the body somewhat as opposed to what is called an "open" coat.

I have seen a number of slick coated dogs that came out of  "normal" coated parents and in fact have bred  two slick coated bitches that this was true of so no you are wrong one of the parents does not have to be slick coated. It is possible that there is not a separate gene at play at all it may merely be the result of modifiers affecting individual hair length, density and orientation.

Now the interesting thing was a sister to those slick coated bitches who had a very correct coat with a pedigree of no known coat producers for at least 4 generations produced a coat ( with great undercoat) who while he had long hair it lay close to his body ( with no part) so while he was a longcoat he was not a "full" or "plush" or "open" coat at all. In effect he was a long slick coat tho we normally we do not classify them as such.

The Dobe Malmute example does not apply for the same reason that you can not compare color genetics across breeds. Breeds often have different gene expressions. So while a white collie is likely to be deaf a white shepherd is not. What is a longcoat in Rottweilers (and yes there are such- they are quite beautiful) would be considered a short hair length in GSD. Different breed , different genes, often different modes of inheritance.

You are talking assumptions and "most likelys". I am talking known facts from real life animals. Sorry but I'll believe my own eyes and hands and touch any day to a theory.

The original breeding (which was actaully going to be AI) with this long coated female was to be with a short coated male. She had many requests for plush and long coats so decided to breed the female with one of her plush coated males. I do see where you are coming from but  she is not strickly a plush/long coated breeder. I drove to her farm in the summer and met with all her dogs. They are all very well taken care of and extremely well behaved, even the pups had a very laid back attitude. (Which I am looking for). The sire has "excellent" certified hips and the dam is certified "good". I do understand some basic genetics and, again, do understand how breeding specifically for a certain gene can lead to terrible genetics in all sorts of animals. But personally I am not overly worried about that when it comes to this breeder.

Slick Coated...  that's somewhat new to me.. can anyone elaborate....???

Its a dog with a very short hair laying close to the body with not fringing......water runs right off and you usually have very shiny coat and easy to keep clean...out of my Tiekerhook line were very short haired pups , never having a normal coat...but very slick....