Dogs independence VS Willing to please his master / handler... - Page 1

I too am curious to hear the answers. My sar dog is all prey, very driven, , works independently when necessary to problem solve, will do bite work and work for me until her drops...heredity? relationship with handler?

It is a lot easier to see what you have with an older dog.  If I was going to pick a puppy that was more willing to please, I would look for the pup that likes to be around you.  The one that likes to follow and always has his eye on where you are.  The pup that does not follow and could care less where you are, may be a bit more ind.  I wouldn't neccessarily say that the one between your feet at all times and is constantly bitting you is a winner. This pup may bring some dominance.  I would look for a pup that brings the toy back to your vacinity, not the one that goes after the toy and takes it off to a remote secluded place.  You can have a dog with excellent prey  that is still independent.  Don't confuse the two seperate entities.

After picking your pup, you play a major role in how the dog percieves your relationship. 

So Don...

My almost 1 year old pup which  whines and.."can't take his eyes off me...", when I tie him to a tree while I do errands is not showing any will to PLEASE ME is that right ???... He is probably all prey and dominance... will even bite me if I take away what is his...I though he was protective... but the truth is I'm the one protecting him and he is the boss...  What a fool i've been... That 's probably why a trainer friend told me I was spoiling the pup too much... And he still does not cock his legs when peeing... Once I see that...  I'll show him who's BOSS... I'm supposed to be the Alpha right.???

My pup is very dominent/independent. He showed no signs of wanting to please me , quite the opposite up until he was about 10 months. Then something in him changed and he is very into doing his OB sometimes for his own reasons, "the ball reward" but sometimes I can get him to work for me. Anyway I am just happy I get cooperation of any sort from him. He does love any praise though and catches on he did a good thing when you make a big deal about it and he wants to do it again and again to get that reward.

marci

You are supposed to be the alpha.  independence vs willing to please is a bit hard to explain in a few sentences. 

Some dogs, like people, see things in a different light.  When working dogs, some do things to please themselves.  Others do things to please us.    It is always easier to work the dog that is willing to please.  You don't have to spend as much time figuring out how to get an independent dog to do what we ask.  What angle should we approach an exercise with the self-centered dog? 

First please note I make a distinction between "willingness to please" and biddability. True willingness is very difficult to describe but once you've had it you want it again. I do not see it very often these days in GSDs. I have more often seen it in coats - it's like it is a linked gene.

Here is a very poor attempt to describe what I see as the  difference. Many dogs with high drives whether prey or otherwise are biddable and trainable but that is not always a willingness to please. Their willingness or bidability comes from understanding the rules and/or understanding that they can get something in return ( acting out of self interest). A willing dog acts out of a desire to please its owner - that is its' reward..

How do you find it in a puppy?  Look for it in the parents :) Deleta Jones' dog Ello von Herretts Fire (32nd in the worlds this year on his first try) has it in spades and initially at least seems to pass it on.

I do believe that it is an inborn trait. Recognizing it in a litter of puppies is much more difficult and I'm not sure I could do it. The few dogs that I have personally known that had it seemed right from a very young age to have an extra "brightness" and joi de vie to them. That life AND you were there oyster. It's not just attention - most dogs learn that very easily and very young and learn how to manipulate humans with it.   Willingness is more an attitude - as I said above very difficult to describe but a joy to experience.

When you find it WELL worth preserving in the genome.

Independent and protective are two totally different traits and a discussion for another day.

From what I am reading here,  I would say that please is not what you want, but cooperation, is the key word ?

When the dog pays a good attention to start with, and you have built up a good relation, I would say you have a good basis for a cooperation. I have seen some training methods aimed at inforcing the cooperation part, it is basically all the things you can make your dog do that requires your help, let it be something where you support him for balance, or where you help him reach a treat up in a tree as an example. About the self centered dog, I am awaiting some good ideas, along with Don Corleone :)

Use the PRONG COLLAR right ...Don..???

A link to an article about ...willingness to please common in coated dogs...( are you refering to Border Collies and Golden Rets.???) would be helpful ...VKFGSD

I am just pondering about the increase of independent attitude amongst GSD's (working and show) why Belgian Mals are considered more of the please command me...willing... yes master, I will obey type...  (and Belgian Mal are short coated...) as opposed to Border Collies.???

And good relation... I understand GunnarHK...  Is that why you may have had  your dog jump over a chest-high obstacle once...but once you help him out... he will stop... just before launch,  then wait for you 'till you support his rear to push him over the obstacle... that's dependence ON YOU...   :)