ED noch zuglassen - Page 1

Obviously you don't understnd that noch zuglassen in elbows is not the same as hips - Borderline is classified as not quantifiable i.e. not measurable - There is Normal - Borderline - Grade 1, 2 and 3.  The borderline group have now been included in the normals.

So what exactly does noch zugelassen mean in regards to elbows?  Does it mean that the elbows ARE dysplastic?  Or is it something similar to what OFA labels as DJD Grade 1?  So what are the actual ratings for elbows through the SV?  And what does each one mean?  Anyone know? or have a website with the information?

While I do not understand the spirit and purpose behind the opening remark in the first post; to my knowledge (yes it's very limited) there has not been a pictoral comparison done of the two (2) systems (O.F.A. vs S.V.) and there has not been a publication that gives an "official" comparison. The quality of the elbow jointis extremely difficult to determine, even for the examiners. You can read about the extra steps required at http://offa.org/elbowgrade.html ane find quite a bit of other supporting literature there. Realize that unless there is an ununited or very thin bone structure (common fault) the elbow joint is extremely difficult to interpret, even for trained eyes.

With the O.F.A. the passing score is "Normal" and there are three (3) grades of "Failure". With the S.V. there is "a" Normal, "a" fast Normal, and "a" noch Zugelassen. All three (3) are passing scores. One is tempted to compare "a" fast Normal to O.F.A. Level 1-degenerative joint disease, and compare "a" noch Zugelassen to possibly a O.F.A. Level 2. But, how does it really compare? Gee, I don't know. And how broad is the spectrum of "a" Normal? Can't answer that either. 

So I cannot provide any answers here-I cannot even provide some direction. I guess a real question (mine anyway) would be "do I trust an S.V. finding of "a" fast Normal or "a" noch Zugelassen to be an indication of good elbow quality?" No, I would not think these were good elbows for breeding, but again, what do I know-nothing since I cannot compare the two (2) systems and have no factual data. The S.V. will establish a Zuchtwert for elbows as it did for hips, but this will take many years and many generations of progeny from scored parents. How long? Maybe ten (10) generations for the establishment of a significant sampling population. Forgive me for speaking as an engineer here.

The O.F.A. states that elbow dysplasie has a higher rate of hertitability than that of hip dysplasie, so perhaps that should be a guide to those seeking answers. Look at the sunny side here-at least the S.V. finally acknowledged that a problem existed and are requiring elbow radiographs in addition to hip radiographs. Not perfect by any means, but hey, one has to start somewhere.

Best Regards,

Bob-O

Bob-O,as always ,it is a pleasure reading your input on these posts.

Domenic, thanks. I need to clarify a statement that I made:

"With the S.V. there is "a" Normal, "a" fast Normal, and "a" noch Zugelassen. All three (3) are passing scores."

I should have continued that sentence with: "and there are two (2) failing scores as well within the S.V. system-just as there are with hips."  I apologize if my earlier statement confused anyone.

Regards,

Bob-O

In OFA, elbows are either PERFECT, or dysplastic. 

An interesting website, "The Problem with Elbows" :  http://www.showdogsupersite.com/elbows.html

Veronica

Veronica, I agree 100%. Someone posted a thread some time ago that basically asked if one would breed a dog with elbows that are not 100% clear. I remember that I said that I would, provided the finding was not worse than O.F.A. level 1 and that dog's siblings were clear, as well as that of the mating dog.

With O.F.A. I am suspicious about the repeatability of the findings between say, "Normal" and "Level 1 DJD" if the radiographs are successivley examined by several groups of different examiners. In essense; what's the repeatability of the findings?

With the S.V. there is an attempt at grading the level of passing elbows. It seems the general concensus in the world of canine orthopaedic medicine is that an elbow with a slight fault can cause lameness moreso than a hip with a slight fault. In that case, passing elbows seem to be more important than passing hips. But; who is going to quantify that with a numerical statement?

I think we all agree that a dog should pass on on four (4) limbs. Whose system do we use and/or trust? Well we do now have some choices.

Best Regards,

Bob-O