Shutzhund 3, or Born Killer, which would be worse to face? - Page 1

In the world of canines and different breeds, the more one see's they will find that there are exceptions to the rule. There really are the rare dogs out there, that don't fall into the "According to Hoyle" rules of what their pedigree implies.

Concerning the breed of APBT, Gameness is predetermined in the womb. One cannot teach a dog to be game. There are game dogs who are not dog aggressive and live their entire lives being friendly to other animals and as a gentle pet. Granted, the dog was never tested, but had he been, he would have showed Game.

My wife and I owned one GSD that I would classify as a killer. I also believe this had been predetermined in the womb.

Almost 20yrs ago we lived in a upper echelon, semi rural area, where most had 5-25 acre lots. The gal accross from us had an american GSD that she thought was a killer, but in truth, was total bluff. This gal and my wife became friends, as my wife also had 2 GSD's. My wife was active in one of the local Schutzhund Clubs and would bring her friend along.

One day the neighbor gal came over with a want ad in the paper. It read Solid Black Male GSD AKC, $50. Not a Watchdog. My wife and her friend went and got the dog.  The first thing the neighbor gal said when they came in the front door was, this dog is very, very gentle and told me I can't be trying to do some of the things with him that I do with our other GSD's.

His AKC papers said My Bud's-Wiser. My wife called him Buddy. He was overly meek and so gentle. He had just turned 2, and followed my wife from room to room. She couldn't even take a shower without Bud in the bathroom. He seemed to always have a sore toe, because if my wife made a stop or turn, Bud was under foot and sometimes he would trip her of get stepped on.  He just loved children and was just the perfect gentle pet.

About 6 months later,,one morning the kids were at school and my wife and I were goofing around and I grabbed her and threw her on the bed. We were laughing and wrestling, when I heard kind of a snorting sound. I looked up and Bud was there. This time his eyes were much different and I stopped immediately and began speaking gently to him and he came back to his normal self.

That evening, I began to find out what Bud was made of.

Jump ahead a year. Bud is now known by most every helper in the area. Its known he is much too serious for Schutzhund. Its known that he is a for real bonafied Killer.

The easiest opponent to defeat, is a predictable one. The most difficult opponent is one who is unpredictable and unorthodox. The Great Muhammad Ali, suffered his second loss and got his jaw broke by Ken Norton. Norton gave Ali such headaches, because Norton didn't fight right lol. Norton didn't hold his hands right. He threw bolo shots and crazy looking punches from all angles. He got to Ali.

Now I ask you, would you rather face a Shutzhund 3, who trains to hit the sleeve, over and over and over, or a born killer who doesn't know to hit a sleeve and will get Ken Norton all over your A$$. 

Um, so, this dog was so sweet and docile, and then acted to protect what was "his", and you don't think the "American" GS was the same way but "just a bluff"?  Quite presumptuous.  ;-)  You yourself just proved the "you never know for sure" rule.

Might also be that some "game" types won't step up to the plate unless commanded!  How about that?

I'm also not sure what you mean by predictable, or what is good or bad.  I might think a dog is predictable (and generally like that), but I never know.  That's why I always have a 6' lead in public and never let even a dog who proved truly great free - you never know no matter how good the base character seems or how good your raising/training is.

Hence the reason for Testing.

When I suited up and got a little rough with the neighbor's female GSD, she cut and run. When helpers wore full suit, complete with face cage Bud was found to be a full fledged killer. If you wanted him off, I had to use a parting stick to take him off.  If Bud, or someone he loved was threatened in any manner the switch went on, his eyes clouded and he attacked.

Be it dog or man, when a loud aggressive type comes off, its somewhat expected. There is nothing quite as eerie as when a human or dog who seems so docile, and gentle one minute, and in the blink of an eye turns Psycho..............its pretty shocking.

Predictable means what it is. That the attack of said subject is predictable. A highly trained Shutzhund dog is trained to hit the sleeve. Its repetition after repetition. Do you not think in a true life situation, that if the human opponent of said Schutzhund dog is wearing a sleeve, that the dog will not strike there?

If you follow the UFC, why do you think Mirko Corcop is getting beat? has he lost a step? or is it that he is so predictable in his offense?

Game cannot be commanded. Game in the context that I used it, does not mean willing.  When I use the term Game, I mean "an unwillingness to give up, even under the most difficult of circumstances. Even in the face of Death."

I'd think all those things have to be balanced; there really should be 2 sides.  "Gameness" as in pit-bull types is not good.  A dog that won't give - just dangerous, period, as they could be doing something totally "wrong".  That's what I like about SchH generally - the dog is supposed to stop when told.  Not stopping probably means he IS "too" driven, I suspect.  I believe there is such thing as "too much" drive, gameness, will, etc.

And now that you know the dog, is he not predictable?  He gets mad when his property is threatened, or when someone looks suspicious (cage, sleeve?).  That's predictable.  And I'd say that's good.  ;-)

Perhaps you're talking about predictable temperament, specifically!  ;-)

With a "predictable" dog you have a chance of not getting chewed to crap, maybe your arm but that's about it.  With an unpredictable dog all bets are off.   I would rather not face any dog but if I had to make it a predictable dog.

Had a dog once.  His name was SoCo (Southern Comfort) (named by my son, not by me).  SoCo was a Bull Mastiff x Boxer and had been raised by a family that had several young children that allegedly taunted and hurt him, as unrully kids will often do.  This family lived in a trailer park and were known by us prior and during SoCo's puppyhood.  They asked me to take him when he allegedly turned vicious at about 8-9 months old.

With me and my wife, SoCo was a pleasant dog who just wanted to please.  When a child came around, SoCo wanted to kill.  It did not matter what child, where the child was or what training and commands SoCo was given.  We observed this behavior, thankfully before he ever got ahold of a child, and tried to slowly change his attitude, but with the utmost caution.

To make a long story short, SoCo went through windows, attempted to go through kennel fencing and generally went nuts everytime he spotted a child.  Don't know what would have happened if he met an adult that was really small.  A decision had to be made.  Keep SoCo kenneled up securely for the rest of his life (he was two) or have him PTS.  We agonized about it for several months and eventually made the decision.  I held him and wept as he went to sleep.  It was not his fault.

Point I am trying to make is that in this particular dog, I am positive it was not genetic and was environment.  Anything is possible and a dog could be a killer genetically, but I doubt it.  I believe, as in humans, that early intervention, in either direction, can make someone or something a killer or not.

To answer your question, I most diffinitely would rather face a dog with upteen titles that include bite training, even police and military dogs, than face a crazy mad dog.  Especially a Pit as they have a very high tolerance to pain, making it hard to change their mind.  A schutzhund dog, I am only assuming as I have never had it happen to me, would not be so hard to change his mind or attitude, if it was for real.

Which begs a question I have always wanted to ask of those involved in schutzhund.  If your dog was attacking the helper and someone else, the helper or another person watching, "outed" you dog.  Would it stop?

P.S.  Glad to see you "coming around" Abhay, but as usual, I will sleep with one eye open (so to speak) on the net.

When I used the term predictable, I used it regarding the fighting offense and technique, of the subject I was refeering to. I tried to use the analogy of Ken Norton, because Norton's offense was unpredictable. Norton didnt throw perfect jabs, straight rights, and left hooks, like Ali was used to defending against.  Norton didn't fight correctly. He threw from all angles, and in all sorts of crazy ways. It was just the style to beat the Great Ali.

The same for an untrained canine. Bud had never trained how to attack. He did what came naturally. His favorite was to fake low and shoot high. Since Bud was never trained in the proper way to attack, it made his offense unpredictable.

One evening my wife and I were watching "Cops". The canine unit had been called, and one of the perps was under an old couch in a junk yard. The dog found him and went to work. As I remember the canine hit the rib and armpit area, then released and struck the perp's leg. The handler was doing his best to Out his canine, but he was wasting his breath. They didn't have a parting stick and were having one hell of a time getting the Shep off the screaming Perp. Now I don't know if that Shep was a Sch 3 or not, but he made a believer out of me, that he would be a good dog not to go up against. 

DoRight- You raised an interesting question that I too an curious if anyone has ever had that situation happen to them first hand.  The only thing I can speculate on is from seeing my own dogs behavior change over the past few months since he's no longer being trained for sport. Prior to switching up the style of training, prior to transitioning him to challenge his energy on the man and not the sleeve he would have clean "outs" and typically on the first time he was commanded to do so.  But I have noticed now that he's in a totally different "zone" so to speak when he sees the helper; he's on a way different mind set that it's not fun & games anymore, he's really pissed off and he really wants to chew em up and when it comes time to "out" it's usually not on the first time like it used to be.  It's more like the third time.  Now this is when his own handler is giving the command- so to ask if he'd listen to another person watching....I can't say for sure he would listen; especially if he's in that "fight mode".  I sure hope I never have to find out first hand and of course we take every precaution to not have any accidents but I'm sure it's happend to other before.  If you had to guess what would happen in most cases what would you say the dog would do?

I have to say I had the same thing happen here, we had a dog Spike-he was a long haired gs, we got him at six weeks old, he went everywhere with us , loved & i mean loved everyone, he would play with all the kids-they would come over just to play with him, he was over sized(very) about 125# of love &fur, never snapped growled, show any sign of aggresion ever- till one night, goofing around on the couch with my boyfriend, we were laughing & play hitting eachother, well all of a sudden i hear this deep,deep growl(scared the @@@@ out of me)there was this look, almost black eyes for lack of a better way to describe it, my boyfriend says- hes fine(stupid)im like no-thats it stop hes upset, knowing ive never seen this from him EVER!! well my boyfriend ignored it, he reached his hand back to play hit & he got bit..... & spike would not let go, i had to grab Spike by the face & try to pry his mouth open, he wasnt rebiting or shakin his head just would not let go, changed my mind fast , i never doubted this goofy, ball playing,kid loving dog again. I knew he'd protect me.  he had no training other then o.b. He passed a year ago in march- ihad him for 10 1/2 yrs, He is still so missed.

Agar, I can only say that one time I volunteered to be the helper for a demostration of one of our departments police dogs, for some politicians.  I had not done it in many years and was a little apprehensive but not a big deal.  Anyway, I wore a sleeve and ran about 30 yards and the officer/handler sent the dog on me.  I turned as I was running and "presented" the sleeve towards the dogs mouth.  I wnated to impress the other cops watching, as not one else would volunteer to do this trial and I was showing off a little.  I also wanted to showcase the dog very well.  As I was running sideways sort of, presenting the sleeve, the dog got the sleeve and I let him take play with it for just a couple of seconds.  I was waiting for the handler to out the dog.  He didn't.  I outed the dog.  The dog stopped attacking.  I had met this dog a few times but had never petted it or interacted with it in anyway other than being in the same room with it on some drug house searches.

He outed for me, and I was the bad guy.

I have never tried to out a schutzhund trained dog.  I have, in the military, observed bystanders attempt to out someone elses dog and usually it did not work, but did work two or three times, of about two dozen tries at it.

Short answer.  I believe that if I went to a schutzhund trial, and attempted to out someone elses dog, that I would succeed about ten to twenty percent of the time, if the handler was a male.  But that is just an educated guess from my life experiences.  I could be way off base.  It might be one percent or ninety percent.  I am sure that some schutzhund participants have more imput, but they may not want to address it, if it makes their sport look bad.