What do you consider a UN REPUTABLE Kennel/Breeder? - Page 1

Without making reference to ANY kennels in particular, what do you consider a "Back Yard Breeder" or "Un-Ethical" breeder? What would you consider the "Red Flags" or warning signs.....?

When you talk to a breeder for the first time and in the first five minutes they tell you how much money there makeing selling puppies. Forgot to ad they don't even know who you are. JMO.

This is my ethical desiderata

1) The dogs being bred are not cared for well and given all the attention these loving, thinking creatures need and deserve  This is virtually always true if the breeder has more than six, eight, ten dogs -- a superhuman breeder may, I suppose, care well for ten.  But even small numbers of dogs can be deprived.

Against this criterion, the big commercial breeders are usually worse than the backyard breeders.

2) The pups are not raised with the best of care -- vet care, food, supplementation, socialization, stimulation, comfort.

Against this criterion, the big commercial breeders are often worse than the backyard breeders, although ignorance leads to poor puppy rearing that limits the dogs forever, and that comes in all sizes.

3) The breeding dogs have not had all reasonable health clearances.

It is here that backyard breeders fall down most and are therefore unethical, although some big breeders also fair to do what is right (HD testing, etc.)  The big breeders who are quite public feel public pressure to do the right thing here, so the bigger breeders may be better here. 

4) The breeding dogs have not been sufficiently exposed to the stresses and challenges of the kinds of lives their puppies are destined to live.

Here, the breeders who claim their pups can do all sorts of things -- schutzhund included -- when the parents have not done those things, are guilty of an ethics violation.  Big breeders may be worse than the others, unless they are breeding titled dogs, or at least testing them in a variety of life situations.  I have personally witnessed stay at home dams bred to titled males producing puppies nervous in the nest -- never should have happened.  The dam should have been tested if not titled.

5) Selling puppies into the wrong family, especially where the drives and dominance of a pup will likely run into trouble with a family with, for example, small children, a fussy housekeeper, etc.  The "price" of high drive pups is a big one: they can't be ethically sold to just anyone, yet they are in more need than others of early socialization.  The families and the dogs end up suffering.

6) Bringing pups into the world and not assuming some degree of substantial responsibility for their upbringing: selling to anyone with a checkbook, not contracting for the return of the dog if problems surface, etc.

7) It is not unethical to fail to support "the Club."  One is allowed to bred two dogs of the wrong fashion or the wrong color and it is not unethical, as long as the breeder does not try to deceive buyers about the status of the type or color.   This is just one of those degrees of conformity that guilds love to enforce by bullying, but it has nothing to do with ethics.

Bottom line for me: a small breeder who loves the breed and her own dogs, works and titles her own dogs, assumes responsibility cradle-to-grave, does all health clearances, cares for and socializes the pups well, places them with everyone's well being at heart, tells the truth each step of the way.  All of that is needed to be considered ethical.

Desiderata

Hmmm... not a bad name for a D-litter puppy. 

SS

Once again, MVF....... 

One that has mulitple litters at a time a couple times a year and could care less who they've sold them to so long as the money was in their account by end of business day.  Selling a dog to someone you know damn well is not gonna fit in to their lifestyle; especially if they have kids and the dog isn't "kid friendly".  Promising paperwork and not delivering it in a timely manner.  Trying to sell a customer just "something" rather than loose a sale and be stuck with another dog.  Not asking the buyer any information on their level of experience in handling, training or caring for the particular dog you're selling.  Putting a high drive dog into a home with a totally inexperienced person who just wanted a couch potatoe pet to pal around with.  Feeding the lowest possible grade dog food because you have 20 dogs that you can't afford to feed the good stuff to.  IMO have 5 nice top quality dogs and take better care of them!  Buying bitches for breeding only then when she's made you 10's of thousands of dollars sell her for big bucks to another kennel so they can do the same.  Those are just a few off the top of my head that would make me consider someone as a non reputable person to deal with.

I agree.... MVF  

Ok, I'll bite on this one.............

1) A breeder who does not microchip or tattoo (& register the tattoo) their pups before they leave sending the pups into the great unknown throws up a flag to me

2) A breeder who will not take back a puppy, adult, or senior dog they produced whether returned from the owner or a shelter that can track the dog back to you

3) A breeder who does not do BOTH Hips & Elbows (MINIMUM) but I really prefer CERF, Cardiac & Thyroid to be done to consider a breeder totally responsible for their dogs health.

4) A breeder who does not title both parents, whether it is an AKC Sport or SchH or the dog carries a SAR or Police Cert

5) A breeder who doesn't train or compete with ANY of their own dogs.

6) A breeder who's dogs ALL live kenneled

7) A breeder who has more than 3 litters a year.

8) A breeder who ships the pup and that is the last you hear from them.

9) A breeder who says to me "my dogs have never produced............................" and I have been breeding for 30 years.

Of course, I consider these things each a point off (some more then 1 point) when looking at a puppy. I understand I would never get to find everything I wanted as everyone's values are different. One point probably wouldn't turn me off but when you start adding them up, forget it. unfortunately, I consider some of the "top" breeders in this sport to be quite unreputable.

Tina

MVF -  I believe you are a well meaning person but I just had to make reference to two of your points the essence of which contradict each other, these are your No 1.  re - no reputable breeder should have more than 6 dogs and then your last paragraph part quote "Bottom line for me ... assumes responsibility cradle-to-grave".

My point  being that a caring breeder doing their utmost to produce healthy stock, feeds the best food to adults and pups, rears & nurtures in the best possible conditions, keeps any they retain for exhibition from cradle to grave and does not feed a lesser food or cast them out when they get older because their useful breeding/exhibiting days are over..     

 In other words these type of reputable, caring breeders could easily have more than 6 dogs because 50% or more of them are Golden Oldies. Should a breeder producing long living healthy stock and retaining those selected from the litter from cradle to grave be penalised by your comment? You cant have it both ways MVF. Unless of course you expect these breeders not to retain a pup from any litter they breed until enough of their Golden Oldies have 'popped their cloggs' by which time the breeder will probably have lost their successful breeding bloodline. Just a thought !!

I commented here only because I felt what you said was misleading to people like usimports who started this thread for advice. Anyone suggesting I was not a reputable breeder because I couldnt possibly be able to look after 6 dogs properly and sometimes (depending upon how many of my oldies are still alive) I have more than 6 dogs to care for  (most I have ever had at any one time is 11), would be well advised to pay more attention to the backstreet breeder who may well have less than 6 dogs, Say 5 for example, none of them over 6yrs old, all of them in whelp, possibly every season and all kept constangly penned up in kennels like battery hens.

Best Regards

Sue B

PS For your info and b4 anybody asks, I currently have 6. One is 9, one is 7, two are 5 and two are 2.5yrs. One of the 2.5yr olds is daughter to the 5 year old female, who in turn is daughter of the 7 yr old, who in turn is daughter to the 9 yr old. The other 5yr old is a male and the other 2.5 yr old is an Import. All will stay with me until their time to sleep but I fully intend to keep something from the litter the 2.5 yr old in now carrying and will be doing the same with my other 2.5yr old female when I mate her. With any luck by next spring I will hopefully have 8 dogs. I dont wish my golden oldies to die to make room (nor do they have to) but neither do I want to stop continuing with my hobby of breeding and showing my own stock.

Just as a matter of interest I have an acre of land, all get on together and when necessary can run together, they all come into the house on an evening to share our company together and when it comes to bedtime three go out into their own seperate kennel space and currently three of them sleep in the house.   

That makes a lot of sense.  I don't think the number of dogs owned has a bearing on whether or not the breeder is reputable.  I too know some who have a lot of dogs, yet all the dogs are well cared for.