Hip Improvers? - Page 1

What are your qualifications for calling a dog a "hip improver"?  What criteria do you use before applying this label to a dog?  Is it words of mouth?  Statistics?  Gut?

I see it stated a lot that "such and such is a hip improver"  or "such n such never threw a bad hip".  Where are people getting this info from to make such statements?

You mean like how they say Don vom Rolandsteich was a hip improver despite being noch zugelassen?

Numbers, I guess. More than coincidence when you breed a stud that often and now you have hips of offspring being "clean" more often than either the breed average or what you'd been getting. Now, you'd have to test that theory to make sure it wasn't just that one "click" that worked out that way.

Yes.  To me if you say these thing there needs to be some proof of this.  How many litters and what were the ratings of those hips of the pups?  What about elbows?  If he/she produced good hips did they do so at the expense of bad elbows?  Are they taking breeding age into effect as well?

Problem with this to me is that many people don't post their dogs hip scores if they are bad or depending on the homes they go to, they may not be done at all.  Then you have to consider the female they are being bred to.  You have to look at what she has done when bred to different males.

It's like I hear that Fatyma z PS "never produced a bad hip". Looks at PDB at you will only see 1 or 2 progeny listed for her. I heard that about her and another dog.  To me that is plain junk.  You breed a dog long enough and they will throw a bad hip here & there.  That is why i ask, where are people getting this info from?  Where is the statistical data? 

"Where is the statistical data?"

That's what the HD-ZW is--balancing the HD ratings of each dog and its parents, siblings, and progeny. By definition, 100 ZW is average. Any dog with an HD-ZW below 100 is a hip improver--the "distance" from 100 is the measure of how much the dog improves or worsens hips relative to the average.

So, the data are out there--at least for most SV dogs with SV-registered progeny and family.

Christine

Christine,

Ahh thank you!  Now this is only IF people have submitted xrays to the SV for rating correct?  What happens if SV gives one rating and OFA gives another & God forbid Penn Hip gives another?
So I can see this easily online correct?

Well, yes. That's a reasonable assumption that to determine an accurate zw, xrays must be submitted. OFA and Pennhip, to my knowledge, don't even have an equivalent to a zw, which is yet another reason I prefer SV.

Fatyma progeny mainly stayed in the Policia kennel they have been rated but not listed in the database. Fatyma and her bro Bero all go back to Held who goes to Berndt . Held was a great dog all the way and you can linebreed tight on him like you can Bero and his son Titus and his daughter Chuna and her son Norbo. All these things are known if you look at the actual CZ SR FCI pedigrees vertical pedigrees very easy to read if you can read. There are publications that list the results year by year of HD production in CZ SR. That is how you know by doing  research. Research is time consuming but all info is listed. That is what proves it results. It is not conjecture

Jenn - I see that everyone has their preference.  Some prefer SV, others prefer OFA and then you have others who prefer Penn Hip.  From the outside looking in, it is hard to tell who to trust as you could submit xrays to all 3 and get 3 different scores or 2 different scores.

I am not saying Fatyma zPS wasn't a good dog.  I will say that I don't believe the stories/tales that she was "bred for over 8 years and NEVER produced a litter with bad hips".  I see that as nothing more than b.s  Breed a dog enough times and you will find some dogs with bad hips.  No dog is perfect.  I think it is a story that has no been told so many times people believe it. The information out there is only as good as the person inputing it.