Color genetics question - Page 1

Ok, I just want to make sure I have something right.

My impression is that B/T x white shepherd breedings lead not to white pups, but to B/T pups where the tan is lighter.  What some people used to call Black and Cream. 

==> Is that right?  And, if so, would a sable x white lead to sable pups with diluted red or tan? 

If so, does this mean the white only dilutes the undercoat, or the tan expression and not the black expression, when it is coming from one parent only?

I am curious if one could breed a red sable to a white and get "true" grey dogs -- white sables, so to speak, or at least wolflike cream sables.  Husky coloring, basically, but with brown eyes and you'd probably not get a truly white background, but that wolf sable on light cream that you see often in wolf photos.

Just curious.

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html

According to this article, there is a gene for the "norwegian elkhound" sable pattern in the a series that includes the diluation of the undergcoat, and it is different from the regular red sable gene.  This seems odd to me.

There is a separate gene, in the c series, that explains white dogs -- a dilution gene.

I can't quite figure out why it seems that white x b/t crosses lead to b/creams, and if, therefore, sable x white could lead to at least the illusion of that "wolf" or husky or elkhound "white" or cream sable.

http://www.geocities.com/sahiela2/colors.html

This author suggests I'm wrong.  Whites bred to colors does not cause any paling of the background in the normal dogs, but the opposite may be true!  That is, the rich red may darken the white pups born to the cross!

Is there anyone out there with any knowledge of this?  I suppose you'd have to be old enough to remember when whites were common...

it depends on what colors are behind the white dog.  White is just a masking gene.  Example, you see a white dog, but genetically it could be a sable.  So bred to a blk/tan dog, you may get sables.  I have seen some pretty dark pigmented dogs come from a white/colored breeding.

The reason it seems that the white color dilutes the tan or red is because we can not see if the white dog infact has poor pigment or not.  it may very well genetically be a very poor pigmented blk/tan.  You can't see it, so you can't breed away from it.  If that makes any kind of sense.

Not all white dog cause pigment paling when bred to a dark colored dog.

<<I suppose you'd have to be old enough to remember when whites were common...>>

They aren't?  there are well established white breeding kennels all over the world.  In almost every country. being shown, working etc.  not just puppymills or poor breeders

very good article about color

http://www.ehretgsd.com/genetics.htm

john

If you breed a white with poor pigment to a black/tan, you will get black/cream.  If you breed a white with good rich pigment to a black/tan, you will get black/tan or even black/red.  The white gene has nothing to do with the lightening of color, it only hides the true color of the white dog. 

There are breeders who raise the "silver sables", I know of one near us.  I have seen one of their pups grown that has the white face and legs, silver shaded widow's peak and saddle, black only on the spine, looks like a husky with the body of a german shepherd.  I think it is ugly.  They are getting the color by breeding the most dilute pigmented dogs they can find, most of their pups have light yellow eyes and their noses stay pink, never turn black like they should.  As far as I know, they do not own any whites and do not produce whites. 

I went to check out a BYB several years ago that had black GSD for sale. The mother was white, the father was Black and Tan. The pups were solid black, OK they were bi-color. They had brown on their feet. But didn't have a speck of white on them. 

I also know someone that breeds the Black & Silver, and her last litter she had 1 solid white pup, the rest were black & silver just like both parents. Which I thought was very interesting.