How much drive is too much? - Page 1

I have a question that might be hard to answer.  How much drive is too much?   SchH is about learning as much as it is about physical energy, so drive must be in conflict with mental focus sometimes. 

A related question is this.  How much extra focus do you need in a pup with tons of drive, to avoid wild and frenzied behaviors that get in the way of learning?  When you watch a pup or a litter of pups running around like little devils, do you also watch carefully to see how focused they are?  How much switching from task to task is taken to be lack of ability to pay attention?

When you pick a pup, do you watch for a balance of concertration and focus on the one hand and drive on the other?

When you place pups, do you pay attention to focus/concentration as well as drive?

Are there things that experienced breeder/trainers look for that you know are needed to go along with high drive, so that you don't just pick or place a lunatic pup in the wrong hands?

I'm not a breed so I can't really comment on much more than I have heard other's giving advice on this topic but yes the good breeders evaluate the litter ver very early on and determine which pups they feel are sport pospects, which ones are less "drivey" so to speak that would be better for perhaps the "pet owner" who doesn't want such a high drive dog and then there are pups that one may think are more suitable for doing more along the lines of police work, SAR....

It really all depends on what the customer is looking to do with the pup that determines which pup a breeder may suggest.  If you're looking for a pup that will hopefully excell in sport then you would want a well focussed, nicely balanced pup.  By nicely balanced you'd want to have a dog that doesn't have too much prey and not enough defense but a nice mixture of the 2.  It's ok if it has a little more of one or the other because that can be worked on and built on with the right training but both must be present for the dog to have a good shot at being a competition dog.

I asked a similar question on a thread awhile back but it was more related to older dogs.  I think it would depend on the handler as well....if you are new to the breed and training and what purpose you want the dog to serve.  In my particular opinion I think there is a such thing as too much drive simply because I am still considerably new to it all; I would lose my mind and not know what to do with a pup or adult dog that had drives out the roof. lol  I like a nice balance because that is what I can handle at this point.  I need a dog that does not have handler aggression and I also prefer a dog that is handler sensitive since I'm not known to give hard corrections. Hope this helped answer some of your questions; the experienced breeders could enlighten you a bit more. 

I like a high drive dog myself, but you have to be carefull because too much of a good thing usually gives you some pain..lol..  Also  I have been told that in the case of females a bitch with too much drive is difficult too breed and usually has handler issues like being a hard dog.  Just a point of view.  

IMO you cannot get "too much" drive IF the dogs nerves are strong!  I have a young female right now who has HIGH drive... but even at this young age she is so much in control and able to cap her drives because her nerves allow her to do this.  We have had a dog here who "leaked drive" so bad that you could barely keep him under control in bitework.  IMO this is due to his nerves. 

This young female of mine has more drive then any of the other dogs I have owned/worked with yet she is also easier to control and handle because she is calm and collected. 

As a breeder, yes I look at all of those things in a litter.  I want to see good drives, but also sound nerves!  Dont get me wrong, I still like to see puppies who are "little devils" :)  I love wild crazy little pups... but I want to see them thinking, I want to see them able to stop and think, I want to see them able to calm down. 

JMO of course

Val

Too much drive is the dog that screams and spins when you are working it. I have really sensitive hearing and the high pitched screaming just doesn't do it for me. I can't stand a dog that doesn't zero in on the helper, you know the one that is too busy bouncing back and forth and in and out and a few spins mixed in here and there. I have seen allot of dogs this  way and people do tend to like it and comment on the "drive". Unless the dog is actually responding accordingly to the helper, the dog that is just flailing about on the field, it's a freak of nature, not driven.

Yea my dog is boring in comparison, he doesn't bark in excess, no spinning, just calmly at the end of the line, on his tip toes. The amount of barking and the pitch are in perportion to how he is being worked. I really like my calm dog he is a bit easier to handle and doesn't grate on my nerves at home. Only time he barks in his kennel is when he wants my attention or it's time to eat. He has been  called lazy and slow but he gets the job done and 4 out or 5 trainers really like him. He's still a pup so I don't worry about it much. Someday he will have the muscle to back up  his cumbersome size. Put a little power behind that bone and he'll be fine. He has enough drive to do what I want, the stability to go anywhere and function around people and other dogs. I rather like him to have a cap on his drives, than to be the live wire 24/7. After all I like German Shepherds, not Malinois.

For example, my neighbors just brought home a new beagle last night. My dog was in his kennel all night and not a peep. I let him out over an hour ago and he is sticking next to the fence, watching and smelling the dog but has not barked. Why bark? He knows it wont bring the dog over the fence to him. He is content to run up and down the fence and watch the small dog play in the next yard. On the other hand, the beagle has barked quite a bit at my dog. Finally the neighbor came out and told the beagle to shut up.

Some people will say you can never have too much drive. I guess that all depends on what you are looking for. A working machine requires allot of drive and allot of energy. A family companion/weekend warrior Sch dog requires less, so he can calm down when you need him steady. Drive shouldn't be confused with energy level though.

Interesting thread, I'm glad it was brought up and I hope others post more opinions and facts.

check out armin's training articles.  particularly the 2 articles on prey drive and defense.  included in his discussion is drive thresholds.......a critical part of understanding drives.  http://schutzhundvillage.com/arminhome.html

high drive dogs are terrific so long as there is a good amount of trainability, clarity in the head and plenty of balance.

pjp

There is no such thing as "too much drive" when it comes to working dogs. Someone pointed out what is key. The dog has to be stable in other areas. High drive dogs that are too "nervey" can be a liability, crap, or both.

The problem with super high drive dogs is that some people don't know what to do with this drive and that is a problem. Dogs with very high drive can appear to be unstable. The prey drive can overwhelm them if it is not used to it's potential. This is why alot of GSD people think Malinios are nerve bags.

I use the analogy of a high drive dog to a high performance racing engine. You operate the motor at high RPM. If you rev the motor past the redline or miss a shift, things break. The same with a high drive dog. Worked incorrectly the drive can go too high and the dog "breaks".

The other thing people talk about with high drive is "being clear in the head" usually it again boils down to training. If the dog is worked in a manner to utilize the drive and the handler learns how and when to "cap" the drive. The dog is usually clear. Some are just not that way genetically or the drive does overwhelm the head which is ok by me to a point.

I like dogs that are a little on the crazy side

Thanks, everyone.  Zeigen...: please direct me to the section on thresholds.  I seem to be missing it in this website.

What I am hearing is that there can be too much drive for one's lifestyle, but one doesn't worry about too much drive for SchH unless the dog is a screeching lunatic?  Is that right?

I am an experienced and high scoring obedience person just getting into SchH.  I have competed with multiple breeds including shepherds in OB.  My high scoring gsd averaged 194 in AKC OB, all titles, my highest scoring dog of any breed averaged 197.  What I have always focused on was an upbeat puppy who MADE TONS OF EYE CONTACT.  A wild puppy with apparent ADD was never my choice.   I just picked up a SchH prospect from SchH titled parents and went out of my way to get calm eye contact and confidence (perhaps what some of you call nerve, but I am not sure) -- and I have those traits -- but in comparison to what I keep hearing on this (great) site, he is pretty darn lazy.  Not that he doesn't chew my house and me to shreds, but his main skill is what I saw in him as a baby -- eye contact, not drive.   He has bursts of about five or ten minutes of wildness followed by long naps.  I am also not able to pull him off the ground with a rag -- he's not that into it.

I have seen litters and videos of litters in which the pups looked distressed.  Almost as if they were sickened by the thought of not being able to bite somebody or something every second.  Is this what I was supposed to get if I wanted to score high in this sport?  And, if so, is this emotionally healthy?  What does this mean?  They seem unhappy and crazed -- is that drive?  And what of the puppies who run to and fro wrecking everything in sight but look happy -- is that what I am supposed to be looking for?  I wish I could really understand this.

Is there any careful testing to figure out if these "high drive" dogs are actually not a little insane?  And are they as smart as the others?  I really don't want to offend anyone, I am just curious.  I coach kids, and if I had a kid show up like these pups I would probably expect him to do well in sport, but not in school.  Is SchH really more about energy-drive-nerve than smarts, then?  Has anyone ever tested a variety of pups on the Superdog (Michael Fox) tests -- do the drivey pups do better or worse?

If I picked the wrong pup for this sport, that's okay, as he is a great pup (although I have never had a puppy so cold-blooded about correction!)  I guess I will find out soon enough.  I suspect he will not be as flashy as the wild pups -- that will even cost some points in OB, although it may help in TR.  Is that what it is in part-- the fashion for flash?

In the end, I am just unclear as to why all this apparent hyperactivity is considered a great thing for this sport and breed.  I am sure I have a lot to learn.  I really do appreciate your help.

That's what I think, too.

Me too, Gard.  I like them just a tad nuts!  I do think 4Pack once again hit one out of the park with her first paragraph.  I don't like the whirling dervishes either.