Need help I can't find the breeder - Page 1

Hi all,

   A guy that has one of my dogs bought a bitch from someone else.  Well, the problem is that he did AKC register her , but, she can not be out of the parents that her papers say that she is, barring a mutation (very, very rare).  This bitch had a litter, but I told him to hold off on sending the litter application in to the AKC until the parents of her gets straightenend out.  She is a sable, her papers say she is out of a pair, both blanket pattern black and tans that both carry black.  I have not been able to get in touch with the breeder on her as I can not get the correct contact info for him.  This can come back to bite him in the butt by AKC, he signed the puppy papers and he is the one that is supposed to check color.  It is a nice breeding, but if it were only the breeding for this bitch.  Her AKC registration number shows that she is the 4th pup from that litter.  If you get on the AKC site and look up the numbers, there are no other dogs registered from that litter with the AKC.  I would hate for us not being able to get in contact with this breeder and then he gets the challenge from the AKC.  If any of you are in Indiana or Illinois, involved in Schutzhund, you can get in touch with me. uffdasmith@ameritech.net

 Pia

I may be wrong, but in all my years of breeding, I thought one 
of the parents had to be a sable, to have any sable pups in 
the litter.

Has anyone ever heard of that?

I just had pups from a sable sire, that I know for a fact has no black
gene, cause my girls do, and if we use him, I know I won't see any
blacks.

You should not hear anything from AKC unless someone, (you or the breeder)
complains to AKC.

This is the point!   He bought this sable bitch and she can not genetically be out of the parents that are on her papers.  He has a litter of pups now that he is not going to register until he can get in touch with the breeder of this bitch to fix this.  If anyone that knows anything looks at that pedigree, they will know that it is not right.

It could be one of the parents WAS a sable, but registered as Black and tan.

Some of the saddle back sables could be called black and tan by the uneducated.

Mary

Mary,  I have checked into that one.  Neither are.  I fully understand about that issue, I had a sable bitch here years ago that was registered by her breeder as a black and cream as a pup.  She was a sable.  But with this bitch in question, both parents are definately black and tans (both carry the black recessive gene).  He could of had a mutation in that breeding, but I don't think so.

I don't breed sable dogs, so I don't know personally, but the Arlett kennel has a very good article on sables on thier site that seems to agree with you that to be sable, at least one parent must be sable..

http://www.arlett.de/sables/index.html

Do you know the parents of this bitch personally?  My old female is sable.  Her sire is sable BUT registered with the AKC as a black/red.  Who knows why but he is.  I have seen the dog, he IS sable.  If someone were to look at my girls AKC pedigree they may also think she is unable to be out of the parents listed (as her mother is black/red), but it is simply because someone registered her father (German import) as the incorrect color.

Another possibility is one parents is sable but a pattern sable.  Some adult pattern sables look very much like a black/tan especially if you see them from a distance. 

I just got confirmation from the breeder!  She in NOT out of the pair that it says on her papers.  Now we will find out how this bitch that was not even registerable in the first place ended up with papers!  He did not do it.

This was a good application of basic genetics.  Two real b/t dogs cannot have a sable.  Sable is dominant, so if either parent carried it, they would show it, as you obviously know.  Great that the breeder 'fessed up.  Good luck.

A black/tan or saddle back sable can carry black recessive.  How does that figure into the puzzle?