VA 1 Pakros d'Ulmental--ED: noch zugelassen - Page 1

What the hell are NZ elbows?   Is this true about Pakros?

Hmm..the SV is not willing to accept the OFA's elbow certification in lieu of its own rating (but will accept OFA "good" or "excellent" hips as equivalent to "a" normal for hips). I wonder how the OFA would evaluate NZ elbows.

Would you breed to a dog with NZ elbows or want to buy one of his puppies?

My feeling is that good elbows are more important than good hips. HD (with clinical signs of discomfort) is primarily the disease of the young dog. With maturity and "remodeling", the dog generally creates his own hip joints.

OTH, with ED--even with corrective surgery--some degenerative joint disease is inevitable and is usually progressive. During some point of his gait, perhaps 70% of the dog's weight is carried on one front leg. Even more weight may rest on a foreleg when the dog lands after jumping the hurdle or scaling the wall.

Big deal--we have an "Ursus-free" Germany Sieger--albeit, one with NZ elbows!

I think In my own opinion a Sieger champion should require to have A normal hips with good elbows. Their should absolutely be no sign of dysplasia of either hip joints nor the elbow joints.

I have a hard time believing that breeding to a dog that has VA with Noch zugelassen Elbow or Hips is going to better the breed.

Louise, I'm with you on this one and do not understand how this is possible. Would I breed to a dog with NZ (or for that matter "a"2) elbows? No, I would not, as present research indicates that elbow dysplasie has a higher heritability rate than does hip dysplasie.

Regards,

Bob-O

you dont have to breed to a dog because its winning , you have other options

Duke, you are 100% correct. There are MANY excellent dogs in this world who did not receive a VA rating or even a V rating because they did not take part in the show. The skill is to select those dogs that offer some improvement to the breed, not just selection based upon the completion of the BSZS.

Regards,

Bob-O

Here is the problem though, NZ = acceptable to breed from.

Now i know of 1 bitch in the UK that has Sch 3, a BVA hip score of 12 & ZW (Breedworth) of 97 but her German hip rating is NZ.

Now there is nothing wrong with this bitch at all, her UK hip rating is excellent and all here other awards most people would give there right arm for, so i can't understand how she could get an NZ rating.

Watcher

I'm afraid that we're mixing apples with oranges. I'm discussing NZ elbows--not NZ hips.

Even so, the the OFA equates NZ hips as "mild" HD. Furthermore, the OFA finds that elbow radiographs done at 24 months offer greater statistical reliability/accuracy than those done at 12 months.

While the OFA has only one passing score for clear OFA elbows, it has 3 grades of ED.

Here in the USA, most respected breeders of German bloodines have the hips and elbows cleared by both the OFA and SV systems.

Years ago, I had a AKC showlines young male from the East Coast standing at stud with me in California. When I showed his hip prelims to a radiologist friend (who had read for the OFA), he said that, barring any changes, the hips would OFA certiify as "good". On this basis, before the dog was 2 years old, I used him at stud on one female with OFA clear hips and elbows.

Much to my chagrin, one of the pups was diagnosed with bilateral fragmented coronoid processes (FCP) of the elbows. During the coming year, I noticed an occasional foreleg lameness in the sire of the litter--which I attributed to possible panosteitis. Finally, when the dog was 2 years old, I had OFA xrays done for his hips and elbows. Indeed, his hips were OFA "good". However, there was FCP of one elbow!

When I confronted his breeder, she claimed that FCP must be a "West Coast disease". That male was promptly returned  to his breeder--who placed him with still another breeder for use at stud!!

Since that time, I have always done elbow prelims (at the time of hip prelims) and had both hips and elbows OFA certified at the age of two (or more). When a male (with clearance by the SV against HD and ED) from Germany comes to this country, I would not consider breeding to him without OFA clearance of both hips and elbows!!

Does the SV offer a ZW score for elbows?

Louise, as I understand there is not yet a ZW for elbows, as there is for hips. Of course it was some time ago that I inquired about this, and I could easily be wrong. If there is not yet a ZW scheme developed for elbows, I presume that the formulae for distribution is still being developed, and of course while the S.V. has fourty (40) years of data for ZW as related to hip dysplasie they would have little data available for the elbow scheme. How many years will this take, ten (10), twenty (20), thirty (30)?

As was confirmed at the time, the ZW for elbows would be a different ZW than the one for the hips and would be absolutely unrelated to each other. It is my understanding from the O.F.A.'s publications that the inheritability of elbow dysplasie is mathematically higher than for hip dysplasie, although the numbers escape me at this time.

And, what will constitute an "a"1, "a"2, and "a"3 and how will this compare to the O.F.A.'s scheme? Will an "a"1 be equivilent to the range between O.F.A. "pass" to Level 1 hip dysplasie that is usually due to an ununited bony structure? And can one expect more joint degradation over the twelve (12) month to twenty-four (24) month range as we believe to be true of hip quality? I realize that I am answering nothing, merely asking more questions.

And I am sure that a dog who receives a "NZ" for elbows could well receive an O.F.A. "pass" at a later date, as has occured with hips. Personally, I trust the O.F.A.'s evaluation at twenty-four (24) months much more than that done by the S.V. at twelve (12) months of age. But, at least the S.V. is finally addressing the issue with elbow quality, and that is a start.

Regards,

Bob-O

Please correct me if I'm wrong--I seem to recall that frequently used studs (who received "a" stamps for hips at 12 months) were required by the SV to be re-xrayed some years down the road to evaluate for any possible subsequent radiographic changes. I wonder if the same practice will prevail with elbows.

However, in reality, can you imagine a previously VA male being down-graded or removed from the gene pool based on more recent xrays of his hips and/or elbows? Well, perhaps--if he seemed to be producing an unusually high incidence of either HD or ED.

But, at least the S.V. is finally addressing the issue with elbow quality, and that is a start.

Yes, I agree, Bob-O. However, it is regrettable that the SV chose to bury its collective head in the sand and to deny the reality of ED for so many years. A number of years ago at a California seminar, where Dr. Funk spoke and was asked about ED, he denied the existence of a genetic component. He said that, should it occur, we would just "put a screw in it".

Could it be that Yimmy Contra did not go VA because his HDZW is 114?  Boy that really limits him in the gene pool, does it not?  The VA that has the highest HDZW at 98 is Nando.  Others are all in the 80's. 

I personally would not consider breeding to an animal with Elbows NZ or A2.  With all the other factors that one has to consider, from temperament, size, working ability then I would try to stack my cards at least as far as orthopaedic problems to my best advantage.  The problem though is that all the tools that we use are not perfect.  It does however bother me that a dog in the top 20 has such a lousy HDZW.  He may be beautiful and be up with the best of them. But, it seems to me that his placing not VA has to do with the HDZW.