"Ursus free German bloodlines" means what? - Page 1

In the puppies for sale section I see  "Ursus free German bloodlines" listed in an ad. What does that mean?

The dog referred to is Ursus von Batu, one of the most popular German sires of the last decade: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/6186.html

He was a terrific dog, and has produced some excellent progeny. Unfortunately, a very large percentage of German show dogs now have him in his parentage, and the dogs are getting too inbred on this one sire/line. Thus, some breeders are advertising that their studs are 'Ursus-free' and will be good to use as an outcross for Urus line females.

IMO, this is just a deceptive advertising ploy (to breed to dogs who may actually inferior to Ursus) by stud dog owners (who could really care less about a broader gene pool). If you look at the pedigrees of of some of these so-called "Ursus-free" dogs several generations back, they all have many of the same ancestors as Ursus.

For example, what difference does it matter if a dog still carries multiple lines to dogs such as Jeck Noricum, Uran, etc.? If one wishes to truly diversify bloodlines by breeding to often lesser quality dogs, one may as well breed to a Malinois--and probably get better results!!

The key to successful breeding is concentrating on consistant phenotypic  type-to-type breedings--without the same faults and with correct size, structural soundness, low ZW scores, rich pigment (not just color), correct dentition, strong ears, constitutional vigor, and good nerves and drives. If, for the present, this means a single 2-3, 3-3, or 3-4 linebreeding on a dog such as Ursus, this is far better than breeding to an inferior dog for the sole purpose that he is free of Ursus.

Also, breeders would be well-advised to consider linebreeding on bitches possessing many of the above attributes.

Interesting post, Louise. I hadn't thought of that. However, I must say I disagree. In my opinion, the German showlines are far too inbred, resulting in dogs that all look alike (cookie cutter dogs, some people call them.) In my opinion, the German showlines could really benefit from outcrossing to Urus-free dogs, or even [GASP!] working line dogs with good structure (and without those horrible roached backs!)

Feel free to jump all over me if you disagree. I am fairly new to this game. However, it has taken me very little time to be able to recognize a German showline dog's pedigree, because the same names appear time and time again. It has taken me much longer to learn the well-known working line dog kennel names, as there is a much greater diversity there.

Louise,

Your post seems very negative and presumptuous. You are so wrong in many ways. By reading only your post one would think that if the dog doesn't have Ursus in the bloodline then it is crap. lol What's up with that? TOO MANY DOGS NOW ARE CLOSELY LINE BRED ON URSUS. Yes, he is a great dog, but any breeder doing any research will know that it is not wise to add one dog in too many times expecially in the first 3 generations.  Even though this line breeding might be good for the particular dog,, when looking for a breeding partner a wise breeder would NOTwant to add MORE Ursus into the mix. Surely you know that closeing the gene pool that much is only asking for problems!!!  Who knows maybe you dont'...lol No dog is perfect enough to be added in 3 and 4 times into a puppy's 5 generation pedigree.  I certainly would hope that there are some intellegent people out there that would be looking for some quality alternatives to add into their gene pool.  I placed the add there and if you had any integrity you would see that the litter HAS a GREAT line breeding of some of the last generation of dogs. Very well planned and thought through for type, hips, working drives, temperament, conformation and intellegence. But obvoiously it takes to much of your time to research BEFORE you open your mouth to be negative. SO typical of this board!  Writing it off as an advertising PLOY.... when it is pure and simple a piece of USEABLE INFORMATION  for those concerned enought to care about keeping their gene pool open with quality stock. Actually it surprises me somewhat as we have met and I had some respect for you.  You have encouraged me with my endevour to improve working drives in show lines. I don't know... maybe a bad day for you????

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com http://castlebrookshepherds.net/enter.html

Having Ursus - free bloodlines really means that you have the option to breed back into the Ursus line without worrying about a too close linebreeding.    For my first litter, I chose a bitch that was Ursus-free and bred her to my Ursus son.  The puppy that I now have out of my Ursus son and an Ursus free bitch are line bred in the fifth generation on VA1 Uran.  In other words no close linebreeding, the dam being Ursus free.  The future of my bitch puppy will once again be open to breed back into the Ursus line as in the meantime, we are already 3/4/5 generations after Ursus.  So, I personally believe the Ursus bottleneck, is more distant than it was just 2 years ago. 

I have had German Shepherds since 1964 and German show lines since 1990. Breeding show to working lines may result in pups that are neither fish nor fowl. However, I do have a friend (who is well known for her working lines) who has successfully combined working lines with show.

She has bred to both of my showlines studs, is very pleased with the results (including the OFA "excellent"), and is bringing her bitch back to one of my boys tomorrow! Years ago, she bred to the maternal grandsire and great-grandsire of my males. In fact, one of her bitches from the great-grandsire was sold to a co-owner in Germany where she was bred to many well-known working lines studs. As a result, this bitch became widely know as a producer of excellent sport dogs.

Linebreeding has its benefits--providing that you line breed on the right dogs and you don't breed his descendants who have the faults of the ancestor in question and do not share similar faults themselves. Linebreeding offers the breeder something in the way of predictability.

For example, I have known the family of my dogs for 6 generations and can predict good hips and elbows. In fact, my males (half-brothers out of the same top producing bitch) have never produced either hip or elbow dysplasia.They do not have or produce roaches or health problems.

I owned and titled their grandsire and was delighted to two obtain pups from litters sired by different males out of a top-producing daughter of my old male. I would not hesitate doing a 2-3 linebreeding on this fine female. Rather, I should say, I would not discourage bitch owners from considering this linebreeding. You see, I no longer breed my own litters--too dang much responsibility assuring that all the pups will go to suitable homes. I enjoy helping bitch owners but hate dealing with puppy buyers.

Debby,

OMG--I didn't mean to step on your toes! While I realize that touting an Ursus-free stud may not be an promotional ploy for you personally (and, yes, I continue to respect you and what you are trying to achieve in your breeding program), such advertising may possibly be a ploy for some people.

Please re-read my post and notice the word single (ie, not several times within the first few generations): "If, for the present, this means a single 2-3, 3-3, or 3-4 linebreeding on a dog such as Ursus, this is far better than breeding to an inferior dog for the sole purpose that he is free of Ursus."

However, I also agree with what sunshine posted: "I personally believe the Ursus bottleneck, is more distant than it was just 2 years ago." As I said before, I think that Ursus has enough redeeming qualities to warrant his being linebred on not too far back in the pedigree.

I will wager that no one cares more for the integrity of the breed than I do. For this and other reasons, I no longer own any brood bitches (just an 11-year-old spayed girl) and, therefore, avoid the temptation to breed every bitch I have to my own studs. Actually, I have no plans to breed any future litters. In fact, at my age, when the present generation of my dogs have passed, I don't know if I should consider another pup--a lot depends on my continued good health. 

LBS,

I hope you got your answer through the flak.  The issue of inbreeding in GSD's is a hot topic, both in show and working lines.  The theory is that if you have a super dog, and want to produce more dogs like him/her, then inbreeding is expected to help pass on that dog's genes and characteristics.  However, this does not always work as planned, and can have unintended negative consequences.  Clearly, too tight inbreeding is a recipe for genetic disaster.  But "how much" is "too much" is a hotly debated topic that will probably never be fully resolved in our lifetime.  LOL.

Regardless of inbreeding, some people just don't like the progeny of particular dogs, and so they structure their breeding programs to avoid certain dogs in the lineage.  Just as show breeders tout "Ursus Free!" you will see working breeders tout "Fero Free!"  or some such. 

The whole issue of how "improve the breed" in general excites a furious debate on this board every time the topic is touched.  There are vehement opinions on all sides of the matter.  You won't have to stick around too long to see the ol' "show vs. working" line hoo-ha get started up again, which each camp firmly believeing they are the righteous protectors of the future of the breed. 

Good question to ask, in any case.  I'm glad you're seeking knowledge.  Just recognize there are many "land mines" in these threads that push people's buttons.  :)

Yvette

I didn't mean to have my question be a land mine, but the answeres are interesting, though as a total newbie I am more confused than ever.

So,  the dogs listed here on this site with SCH titles are working dogs, right? And AKC conformation classes are show dogs, but what are obedience trials, agility trials and tracking? If done at a schutzhund competition the obed and tracking are working, but if at AKC competition they are show? Can you see why I am so confused?!? 

 And the dogs in the pedigree gallery on this web page... working dogs?

Thanks for the education, Yvette, I especially appreciate your knowledgeable answers and tolerance for educating someone new to GSD who wants very much to learn about this breed.

LBS