Titles - Have they Proven themselves when needed? - Page 1

Hello everyone.

My question is purely out of curiosity. 

How many of you who have titled dogs have ever had to rely on the training behind the title?  And, in your specific instance(s), did the title prove itself?  Meaning, did the dog that titled to say Sch3 prove that he/she had what it took when needed?  Or, did the dog fail to come to the rescue/challenge?

This post is not intended to demean titles but simply to see if the purpose of titles actually proves that the dog in question is worthy when the real life situation is presented.  That the title is more than an "award" given for a sport.

Thank you for your answers.

In regards to your question titles mean nothing in a "so called real situation".  In a real situation training is everything. The training I did with my female came to use a few times. One time when she saw a wild cat and took off I yelled platz and she immediately did. I then recalled her and she came right to me. The other two times were when we were in a ring for AKC and another dog left it's owner and was running around the ring and my female went to join in and I told her to platz and she did immediately. I have so far not needed her to protect me against someone or something and I hope I never do but her training and the type of dog she is I am sure she will.

Now at home and around her territory she is extremely protective and again with the training I did I can turn her on and turn her off. I taught her to bark on command if needed.

My female is Sch1 CD and KKL1 because I wanted to compete with her  I also did it because I love working with my dog and my dog lives to work and I love Sch. This is also required for breeding. Even if I never titled her she would still be the same dog with excellent training behind her. With out the training you have nothing. Remember just because a dog has a title doesn't mean it will protect you or even listen to you.There are alot of dogs out there with a SCH 3 title and I would not trust them with a ten foot pole. You also can have good training and bad training so finding the right person to help you with a young dog is also very important.

So, if dogs that are trained and have achieved the title of SCH3 couldn not be trusted with a ten foot pole to do what they should when needed, what good is this title?  I realize it is a sport but, I thought the intention was to show if the dog had what it needed.  I also realize that it IS THE DOG and NOT the PEDIGREE that makes the dog.  However, so many rely so heavily upon these titles to ensure the dog is "breed-worthy".  If this title is not worth the paper it's printed on, then what have we achieved?

To be more blunt, has anyone's SCH titled dogs proven themselves ready and able to protect in the real world and not just on the field?  I know SCH trained dogs will go after the sleeve, etc....but, what about the dude that grabs you in the parking lot?  What will that same dog do then?  I know nobody can say for sure what there's will do unless they have already shown it.  I'm just curious to how many HAVE shown this and how many were called upon that failed?

This thread from a while back sort of incorporated this topic and was a lot of fun too:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/72378.html#73601

I think that this question is missing the point. When a dog is trained to bite the sleeve over and over again, it becomes habit for the dog to go for the sleeve. By the time a dog reaches the Sch 3 level, think how many times he/she has bitten the sleeve and only the sleeve. Dogs are only dogs and they will do what they have been trained to do. If from an early age, you introduce the muzzle, and hidden sleeves and situations where the sleeve is not so obvious, then again, you are training the dog and he/she will not look around for the sleeve when it comes to a real situation. There are more civil dogs that will bite anyway, (and can be a liability off the field ) but just because a trained Sch 3 level dog that has been offered the sleeve over and over again, and never anything else, acts confused in a real situation, does not mean he/she is a bad dog. His offspring, if trained differently, could be great police dogs (or could be horrible, who knows!).  He, if trained differently, could be a great police or personal protection dog. (or maybe not, depends on lots of other factors as well.)

How many people that have learned a martial arts sports, can't perform in real life? Doesn't mean they couldn't ever, just means they may need to learn it differently.

We can debate our dog's ability to perform in real life endlessly, but the bottom line is there are tons of factors contributing. You will always find Sch 3 dogs that protect in real life situations, and others that won't. Pick which every side you are on, and find your evidence.

titles are for people to feel good about themselves.  go ask your boss.

they mean nothing.  two sch 3 dogs could be 80 pts. difference between the two.  one could get a 220 and pass, while the other could get a 298.  the odd thing is the 222 could have gotten a lower score because he is more civil and less of a point dog

The point  I was trying to make was just because a dog has a Sch 1,2,3 doesn't mean it is going to protect you in a real situation. The right training and the right dog has a better chance. I am sure there are dogs out there that have no titles but have the right training will protect you when needed.  Some dogs may protect you even with no training just depends on the dog. I feel very confident my dog will protect me but it is not because she has a Sch title. I won't  know if my female will protect me until it happens(I hope it never does) but I have enough confidence in her as well as she does in herself to do what is needed.

Denise

Yes, some SchH trained-titled dogs do prove themselves.

A young couple with a baby and two small children came to me looking for a dog.  A couple of weeks before, the wife (I'll call her Anna, for privacy purposes) had a freind who came over to her house to visit.  While Anna was there, that friend's boyfriend dropped by.  They had an argument, and the boyfriend started to beat up the girlfriend.  The husband stepped in, and the boyfriend drew a knife on him.  The husband had to call the police to get the threatening man out of their house. 

The boyfriend started stalking Anna and her children.  He and his friends drove by the Anna as she was walking down the sidewalk and nearly side swiped her.  He sat outside her house in his car to intimidate her when her husband was gone to work.

I had an oversized bitch, titled BH, working on her SchH1 but had not acquired it yet.  She was not good for breeding, but she was a big, intimidating dog who was housebroken and had good training.  They took the dog home, who fitted right into the family-- careful with the kids, and super protective of the baby. 

A different friend of Anna's dropped by the house, while the wife was holding the dog on the leash.  This friend said "Hey, that dog doesn't look scary to me!"  She threw her hood over her head, and leaped at the dog and Anna, screaming threats.

The 95 pound dog instantly went into a nice bark and hold, she has a wonderful deep scary bark, jumping up into the the woman's face.  She backed the woman right up against the wall.  The friend is almost crying now and says "Call her off!  She IS scary! Call her off!"  That was a good, clear headed dog, Schutzhund trained dog responding just as she was trained.

When the wife told me about this, I said I was glad that her dog had proven she was ready to protect her, but to warn all of her freinds to NEVER DO THAT AGAIN-- it's called a LAWSUIT waiting to happen.

The last I heard, the family was still very happy with the dog.  The family bought a new house and moved out into the country.

Veronica

Veronica

That is half the problem with Sch dogs.  Like Changer said, they don't get cross trained.  Hold and bark is a Sch exercise.  The dog was trained to do this.  Did that episode completely show that the dog would "protect"?  I don't know.  Most people that do PP don't mess with a hold and bark.  It is useless.  If there was really a threat you would want that dog to apprehend the sucker.  If that person continued to threat, it is possible that the dog may have bitten.  We don't really know.  I am a Sch person who did the PP arena first.  I love Sch. It is a lot of fun, but there is not much value in the Sch exercises for a true PP dog.  Hold and Bark???  Escape?-If the guy is escaping, why send the dog?   The side and back transport?????  What do you want to do, go for a stroll with a criminal?  Courage test??????  A PP dog should never be sent on a guy from 50 yards away.  It is here to protect you.  The dog should remain by your side.  What if there were multiple attackers and you just sent your dog 50 yds away?

Quote: So, if dogs that are trained and have achieved the title of SCH3 couldn not be trusted with a ten foot pole to do what they should when needed, what good is this title?  I realize it is a sport but, I thought the intention was to show if the dog had what it needed.  I also realize that it IS THE DOG and NOT the PEDIGREE that makes the dog.  However, so many rely so heavily upon these titles to ensure the dog is "breed-worthy".  If this title is not worth the paper it's printed on, then what have we achieved?

I often wonder about this myself.