Training a 'Hard' Pup - Page 1

Last night, I looked after a 5 mo. GSD female that belongs to a neighbour. She looks like working lines, tan with a black blanket. Boy, is she one-hard assed bitch!!

She tried to dominate my 8 mo. old pup and nearly succeeded.

In the 5 hours she was here, she ran Star ragged, and was still looking for more.

She'd sit for me without much trouble, but when I tried to put her into a down, she fought like crazy, and attempted to bite me when I took hold of her front paws.

When I took her for a walk, she tried to go charging off after a bicycle and a motorbike....I had to 'hang' her (lift her front feet off the ground) to get her back under control.

This is their first dog...and they live in an APARTMENT!

Fortunately, they know she's a difficult pup, and have hired a professional trainer to help.

Now, my question. The first dog training book I read was Koheler. I know he's fallen out of favour due to his harsh methods, but he got a lot of stuff right. I still believe a dog is a dog, not a kid, and I don't wince at giving a good, hard correction when it's needed. As Kohler said, a good, hard correction is better than 10 gentle, nagging ones. My second GSD was on the hard side, and I can't tell you how many times I scruffed her, or did the alpha dog rollover on her when she challenged me. However, recent studies have show that the traditional choke chain method of training (which is what I've always used) can cause permanent damage to a dog's neck.

The owner is using a modified choke collar on this dog. It's a flat fabric collar, about  3/4 of an inch wide, with a chain looped through the ends. It can be pulled tight enough to give the dog a good correction, and when the owner came back to pick the dog up, he showed me how he corrected the dog, using about a force 10 yank on the collar.

I'd also like to say, I hate gimmicks in training. Shaker cans are a ridiculous waste of time: the dog respects the can, not the person shaking it.  I'm also suspicious of haltis and gentle leaders, and wonder if they really do any good. I do use treats to start training a new task, if needed,  but quickly phase them out, once the dog's got the idea of what is wanted. I'll never forget the story of a handicapped lady who was stranded in the parking lot in the pouring rain. She'd dropped her keys, and her service dog refused to pick them up because she'd run out of treats!!

So, come on, all you working dog people  who've had experienced with hard, high-energy dogs, how DO you correct a hard-assed bitch like this one without risking damage to her neck? Or are the traditional methods still the best?

On my pups I start imprinting very young and train with motivation not complusion. I spend ALOT of time working and being with my pup. It is extremenly important the dog respect you has the leader. If you correct with timidity you will create a huge problem with a hard dog. My 8 yr old bitch is the same way, extremenly hard and not handler senstitive at all and when she keys up i have to be strong to keep her under control. It is harder to re-gain control once you lose it and will require harsher handling. Just balance it will lots of motivation. This pup needs a correction and i would not worry about her neck at this point within reason. I would put her on a long lead and place her in a situation where she wants to take off and sternly be telling her no, once she does take off and reach the end of the rope she gets  hard yank.

I hope the owner did not show his correction on the pup for no reason?

You also must vary the treats and toys so the dog never knows if you have one with you or not and if he will get it or not. I made this mistake years ago myself.

If this person intends to keep this bitch they better get to work and get control while they can, they longer they wait the harder it will be. I understand the old german method was to do no correction until the pups were 1 year old and then train with hard complusion.

What are theyusing this dog for? Is she basicly going to be just a pet, or do they plan to work her. The Gentle Leaders are a great training tool, gives you control of the dog with out harsh corrects, has a natural calming effect on most dogs and great for novice "PET" owners. JMO!

Hmm.- So -- did they teach the dog? and if so .. what and exactly how did they teach it.. i always keep in mind .. what people think they are teaching, if they put the time in , is not what the dog is learning ! the first demo i give to people : what you think you are saying to your dog and what it is hearing may be two diametriclly opposite concepts.things they didn't teach for sure -- respect for another person ..that even though the dog is in the down position[ a vulnerable and submissive posture] it is a very rewarding thing to do . and my biggest .. and the biggest concpt i teach people i work with , even more than what desert rangers alluded to ..not that you control the dog per se but moreover " dog YOU yourself  better have self control foremost in my prescence or anothers' - aside from the fact that you should hav e and mind your manners[ which is not the same as obedience] !  i do not have a problem with different training tools .. they all have a time and place.. but thisd is the problem wioth many a folk -- they want to use those devises to contol the dog -- many trainers miss the point -- they are teaching and communication devices foremost ..-- well the old probverb -- if you want to know the owner -just take a look at the dog

No magic bullets and harder dogs require more time and effort.

A "gentle leader" puts pressure on the spine and cartelidge of the nose, it is anything but gentle.  Bronc horses used to be put into war bridles, the pressure points could bring the worst bronc to it's kness.  The gentle leader is the exact same principle.  The only thing it's gentle on is the handler.

I have never used a gentle leader myself but sounds ok.  Of course this pup will need lots of other training too.

i am the same as DR & Alpha as far as pups are concerned it's pretty much all about motivational training, communication, time and effort.  I only have high drive working line dogs.  I find that making things a game rather than trying to get them to submit by force is a lot easier with this kind of pup.  I have never used a gentle leader.  On a 5 month old I use a fur saver doubled back on its self and clipped so it's neutral, can't choke.  What have they been doing to this point & what are their plans for the dog?  Working on tracking would be a good form of exercize for this pup. 

Exactly sue ,these type dogs need something to do or else they usually end up in trouble or the owner tries to get rid of it. my friend that trains narcotics / scenting dogs gets quite a few free dogs from situations like this.

Basically, I think they bought her as a pet. The owners are a Chinese couple, and between their poor English, and my lousy hearing, we have a bit of a communication barrier. I told them I thought their dog would be good for Schutzhund, and gave them the  number of the local club. She definitely needs a job to burn off her energy. I'm not quite sure what the situation is with her papers, or what her pedigree is. They are planning on having her spayed, though.

They take her to the park just across the road from me, and throw the ball for her for about 15-20 minutes twice a day, in addition to walking her, but she obviously needs more than that, especially since she's confined to an apartment.

The owner did do the correction for a good reason. She got totally out of control when he came back to pick her up.  I think he does use more correction than necessary, though, and does not praise her up when she obeys. I checked out their trainer on the web, and he sounds like he knows his stuff.  It's a shame that they got matched with such a hard, high energy  dog as their first pet, though. The breeder certainly wasn't doing his/her job!