Show/working cross observations - Page 1

Disclaimer: These are MY observations. Based on MY dogs. These are observations I have made of them and not of any other dogs. These statements should not be construed as a threat to any purists of separation of the lines. Nor are they an endorsement of random mixing of lines for the sake of mixing lines.

My 2 yr old WG Sholine bitch is generally quiet natured but is playful whenever you want her to play. She'll chase a ball as long as you'll throw it and will chase catch and eat africanized bees in the back yard for hours. We actually left one greasewood bush for her when clearing so she can have her bees. She's very mellow but has killed four birds in the last year (that we know of). She's convinced she's one of the kids. She is quite tractible and doesn't usually need more correction past verbal or a hard stare. If she knows what I want from her, she is very "helpful". I mean, she is willing to help acheive my goal. She has had these same basic traits since she was a pup so I can compare them by personality more than age. She was an impulsive outgoing pup  who has had a goofy grin on her face since her first moment. And she does her obedience well as a fun game. If I take her toy and put it away, she will pace and try to figure out how to get it. She is quiet creative and very intelligent in the process.

My 6month (almost) show/working cross is a different story. He does all of the above but with a sense of mission. He chases the bees because they are there. Not because they are fun. He's very mellow-when he's snoring. He does his obedience well as a fun game also. But, it's a game he is driven to figure out. If I take his toy and put it away, he will make it his life's mission to recover it. What totally baffles me is his focus. He simply will NOT stop what he puts his mind on. Yeah, I know, supposed to be a good thing. Problem is, no matter how many jobs I give him and how closely I supervise him he still manages to start his own "projects". Very few of them good :). He is SO BUSY!

I just can't believe he has this much difference to his half brother (my daughter has). Father is showline mother is mix Troll two generations up and Kirchental also in pedigree. It's not like a huge influx of working line but so much influence. I don't know if I could handle a full working line though I think they're awesome.

Just random thoughts.

All dogs, regardless of WL or SL have individual personalities. Have fun with him. He sounds great.

One thing you need to clarify for me. Africanized bees? Where do you live? I watched a show about them. In laymen terms, they are called killer bees, due to their aggressiveness. A few months ago, they killed a Lab somethere out West. Are you sure you have them? If so, be careful that they do not "gang" up on your dogs and kill them. Even the most heathiest dog can only take a certain amount of their venom.

Chris

I am in Arizona. Yes they are Africanized. According to published reports, 85 percent of bees in AZ are africanized. They actually are not as uniformly aggressive as you wuold be led to believe. They can be but not usually without major invasion of their nest. We don't have a nest so they aren't aggressive with us or the dogs even when they are being eaten. It's not uncommon to see an entire swarm of bees float across the desert. I was out with a couple friends hiking this spring and we saw one in the distance that was huge and so black. Mostly not a problem without a nest to protect but we didn't run into the middle of it either :). 

She and he eats them one at a time when they can actually catch them. I actually see it as a positive. At that rate they will be able to withstand an attack much better than if they had no immunity. I was totally freaked out at the idea of killer bees around my kids and dogs when we first moved here. Same for tarantulas, black widows, brown recluse, snakes, fire ants, scorpions, Gila monsters, the list goes on and on. It took awhile to adapt to simply making accomodations for their presence and living your life. But, I'm definately progressing.

Dawgs

When we lived in Nevada, years ago, africanized bees were just invading the area and were feared by everyone...we had a nest on our street, they would fly en mass and kill little pets, including my son's bunny. We had UNLV come out and remove the nest, but they were back within days. PIA! But my daughter used to play with the tarantulas, she called them 'ranch-a-rollas'...'cause she couldn't say tarantula, they weren't aggressive at all. But the thing to remember with bees, is that at any given time, any animal can suddenly have a reaction to them, the dog, or person, could have been stung any number of times in the past, with no problem, and then, out of nowhere, the next bite/sting, they have a reaction, from swelling & hives --all the way to anaphalactic shock, which is a life threatening emergency. Please be careful! jackie osborne

?Geez I just re-read that...I should have said..."Beeeeeeeeeeeeeee careful!"?!?! jo

I have conflicting observations. I bred my male Baron Vom Ulf Haus (on this site) to a female that was half show, half work. The male we kept out of that litter is INSANE! He has ball drive that rivals any working dog out there, has aggression to match, and is NON-STOP. The only thing is that he is more of a mindless worker. Meaning if you have the ball, you have the "remote", if you don't he is trying to give you the ball. He gets hectic for it though, if it gets lost he will look for it for a minute and then start looking at me to throw what I dont have.

In contrast my Baron (his daddy) comes along, quietly and calmly searches for the ball that Neo is going nuts trying to find and gets it and plays "keep away" from Neo. My male is much like your female only he kills squirrels not birds. He is fun loving, happy, and also a great "real" protection dog. My half and half does show that "mission" you mention as well. What sucks is that I was breeding this litter to get "calmer" house dogs that would be good for families. Instead I got future K-9's and Schutzhund crazies!

Flipfinish,

Genetics are funny. If it was that easy, we would not have any problems. Closely linebred litters or dogs with similar pedigrees are more predictable. That is why not too many breeders are willing to take that risk of outcrossing. Personally, I find it fascinating.

Mixing lines requires patience and thinking in generations. It is not an easy fix. It is also more like playing the lottery. You might get lucky or you might not. If you do, you need to keep that particular dog and think about the next generation to genetically manifest the characteristics you want.

As to the drive: Showlines can have just as much drive as workinglines. I have an 8 month old Orbit von Tronje-daughter who goes after anything that moves. She is nuts. It is the hardness and natural aggession that some people think the showlines are lacking. But there are also exceptions to the rule.

Chris

I am no expert by any means. But the breeder is a good friend and I have been around his dogs for years. He is a certified trainer of bomb detection dogs, military police dogs, and k9 dogs so definately does know temperaments, conformation, etc.. He has bred mostly Czech and DDR working lines for years and has done more minor in the WG showlines as well. He does have a "generational" mentality and has been working on this "infusion" of working/show for three generations now. He has kept back pick for future out of each littler. My pups mother was one. He took my boy's sister and took her to a new SCH club at 4 months. She was so impressive that the helper (who didn't know my friend) spoke to him later. He asked if this pup's breeder had any more from that litter and what the pup's lines were. I know my boy has been observed by trainors at SAR group as having an excellent nose.

It was a litter of nine, and I don't know about any others. I don't find a lack of  "mindful-ness" (is that a word?) in him. He is infuriatingly dogged. Often about the wrong purpose and very settled for a puppy when he puts his mind to something. But, that could just be a disposition thing as stated by Silbersee. I have always gotten a kick out of being around the breeder's working line dogs because they are so, uh, how to word it? Well, so "working line", I guess. And his showlines, as well.  I just see the differences in my two dogs and can really see them reflected in his working lines. That's why I believe it to be more a breeding and less a personality issue with my boy. I have no intention of ever breeding. The only way I would ever even conceive of it is if he proved himself in every way and his breeder wanted to use him for stud for a litter. That way it would definately be a true breeder's expertise and I wouldn't screw anything up. And he would have the contacts for placing them well. Even then I don't know if I could sleep for worrying about the babies. But, I definately didn't buy him for any such purpose and think it is very unlikely, indeed.

I just know that everyone who has been around him (and a lot of them are trainers and SAR trainers) have been impressed with him and his sister. I know my friend will keep this vision he has and will be very cautious in proceeding. To me that is reassuring.

Sorry to be longwinded and don't mean to come across as an authority.

Dawgs

Jackie- I see your point about the bees and though it is not the norm I realize the dog could develop a reaction to them.  And we did leave the one bush. I gave the impression, I think, that we wouldn't have them without the bush. That's not entirely true as they are around and active most of the year. And always in our yard. The bush we left because normally they fly around lower to the ground. With the greasewood bush she can jump for them. Unfortunately, they are simply "around". If we lived in town I doubt they would be much of an issue. Out here there's just not much you can do.

Ranch-a-rollas thats funny. It's funny to hear them walk on cement. They click when they run. Like a cartoon.

I am very pleased with my 50-50 show x wkg line litter, now 8 mos. old and started in SchH. training.

SS