Working lines: Longer lived and healthier? - Page 1

Any stats some where comparing different lines that refute or support this belief? What are common ailments seen with working lines? Do they tend to live past 12 years more frequently than other lines?

IMO they all have their problems. I have a almost 10 year old  (working)with a bad elbow and is slowing way down at almost 10 years old. Just lost a 12+ show x working line girl.

IMO alot has to do with what they eat. My old girl was not doing well at 10 years of age but got better when she  got on RAW and made it to 12+.

I sure wish I knew if it was lines or food for sure.....I am now pretty much feeding RAW so time will tell the tale.

Thanks TR, though I'm convinced that working lines might have an edge on other lines of GSD bred for looks over utility when it comes to soundness and health, I want to gain a realistic perspective on whether the "myths" and "legends" around their lauded hardiness is true. I hear breeders brag about never having had a sick WL GSD or having GSD's that reach 15or 16 as a matter of routine.

wow, where to begin,

the number of varibles in play,

diet, exercise, genetics, living environment, social interaction, etc.

times the number of times each one comes in to play on a daily basis

equals the overall health of  the animal which is directly proportinal to the time of life of the animal

now i leave it to  you to figure out  what percent each varible plays.

good luck

john

 

I do not think working lines live any longer than show lines---I assume you are not talking American show lines which do have very low life expectancy.

As for my own experience, in the past 35 years I have owned 7 GSDs all from German Show Lines. My first Male from  Marko lines lived to be 11 3/4. I had a Lasso val di Sole daughter who lived to 12.5 years, a Dingo Haud Gero grandson lived to be 12.7 years, a Quando Arminius grandson who lived to be 13.5 years, an Eiko v Kirschental daughter who lived to be 13.8 years and now have a  Mark Haus Beck female who is 2 months shy of  14 (as well as a younger dog)

I do not know if there have been any real studies on the subject but I attended a seminar led by Heinrich Messler on the subject of anatomical suitability for the work (protection) and health concerns and he indicated that on both counts show lines seemed to have the edge.

 

Gertrude:  I find that last comment of yours incredible and would think that it would induce a long argument here.  I will sit back and see.

If I understood it correctly, you are stating that Heinrich Messler while doing a seminar on the subject of the anatomical suitability for the work (protection) and health concerns in and of the GSD, he indicated that show lines are more suited anatomically than working lines, to do the work of a GSD, and he also stated that show lines are generally healthier.

I know that it is just one mans opinion but .......WOW.

My limited educated guess would be that he is not correct, as I would think that breeding from dogs that excelled in the actual work, would produce dogs better suited for work, vs, breeding dogs picked for their structure and confirmation.  But ......maybe.

What say you working line proponents?

I as a working line person would say that showline dogs (HERE COMES THE FIGHT ) do not do as much WORK as the working line dogs do.  Yes I hear all you show people,,"But i run in the ring for hours each day."  Congragulations, your dog can run in circles,,, so  do my pups chasing their  tails.  

The most ground i am willing to give up is this,,, working line dogs work more on a daily basis,, this in turn takes more out of them and may shorten their life span. Example, you dont see too many 90 year old ex-football players,, but there are a  bunch of old, wrinkled, ex-models in the world.

Give me a strong, fully committed working dog for 8 or 9 years, and I will love it more than any show dog that wont work 100% of the time even if it lived to be 20!

OK, I will get off my soap box.  But let us not forget WORKING DOGS WORK !,, Show dogs look good.  There is a middle, but too many of us just choose to ignore it.

JOHN

Is it proper to compare dogs to humans in this "argument".  I mean, in the world around us, the "beautiful" people get all the girls (or boys), get most of the money and do not do much work, although they will say they work very hard.  We know they do not know what hard work is.  Same in the dog world, like it or not.  The beautiful dogs get all of the girls and money.

 

From everything I have been told "forever", the consenses is that if you work hard or get a lot of exercise, then your heart will be stronger and you generally will live longer.  Is it also proper to compare humans to dogs in the regard that humans who work harder (biblical times, scratching out a living from the land, etc), apparently lived much, much longer than the "upper class".  Except for the peons that were slain for sport or profit.  They also "apparently" lived much, much longer than any of us do these days.

Of course, if you do not believe the Bible, then this last point is null and void.

A very good argument could be made, just using common sense, that breeding for correct structure and conformation, instead of breeding for "hardness", courage, etc., would make better "bodies" and therefore more "capable" of work, even though they may not actually do work.

I am still waiting for an answer to the age old question of whether or not, a dog that participates in Schutzhund is actually a working dog?  Or is it just a dog that has shown some capacity for work, but not actually "working"?  Additionally, would breeding GSD's with herding titles, produce progeny that could do schutzhund or police work, as well as breeding the other working GSD's?  Is a GSD that "guards" a atuo junk yard, a working dog, or just a fenced in dog with an attitude?

Just provoking thought.

gerdrude writes ...I do not know if there have been any real studies on the subject but I attended a seminar led by Heinrich Messler on the subject of anatomical suitability for the work (protection) and health concerns and he indicated that on both counts show lines seemed to have the edge.

They always say that every sieger show speech I ever listen to  " the conformation is important for the work .

I agree structure must be sound  to carry a dog through a days work  however not with the current conformation on todays show line dogs . Overangulated dogs that can no longer be agile  . What kills the work in the conformation dogs of today is not only their structure but also the diminishing desire to work . The SV has taken the GSD  to a split   high priced show dog and much politics and the GSD suffers do to it.

I am talking % of dogs  I have seen some indivduals out of conformation lines that are very nice and balanced dogs however those dogs do not make the VA or spitzen V placings  . I myself had  showline dogs and also bred them  but gave up due to the difficulties  of  achieving a good percentage  of dogs with working desire  and sound nerve .

have met many dogs ScHh3 high lines that had been imported some with SG scores :) and  do not know how to track nor how to retrieve  and barly make it to the sleeve but they are highly regarded due to their  VA lines .

Performance tests for these dogs have been adjusted for them and are also being judged for just this type of GSD :((   I do not blame the dogs I blame the organization their officers and the judges for allowing this to happen and then have the odosity to state  that this is a balanced dog  ........turning a blind eye and make adjustment and excuses the shortcomings for   the marginal performance.

GSD would have been better off  NOT becoming a high priced SHOWDOG.

Many of people here on the board own conformation dogs I am not attacking any individual I am taking % of dogs  from that bloodline  . a good dog is a good dog   then I look at the lines :) and vice versa :)

I agree diet, exercise,care etc play a important role for sure in both show and working lines. However when a dog is breed to conformation with a lot of line breeding for a look then the gene pool gets small and the working lines usually do have better health overall with some exceptions. Most of the working lines I have seen with health issues are line breed as well.

Most of the immune disorders comes from show-lines both import and american when you breed for a look as show lines  opens the door for more chance of genetic issues quite naturally.  This is what is wrong not only with shepherds but any dog breed for show. The allgeries, chronic pancreatis, hips,  immune disorders etc. all due to breeders trying to get what they think is the trophy dog in looks with no concern to health, temperament or working ability

I would not get a puppy from a close breed pedigree work or show this is the major cause of dog health issues today in every breed.

Marlene.