Genetics Question - Page 1

I understand that sable is the most dominant followed by blk and tan/red followed by bicolor then solid black. Can a sable dog carry the sable gene along with the blk and tan/red and the solid black gene? For instance if the sire is solid black and dam is sable and the dog himself is sable does that mean he can only throw the sable and solid black gene?

Gimmee, the sable dog is the "original" dog if you will, and is the dominant scheme of the GSD. The ability to produce the variants of black/tan, black/red, bicolour, black, and even white (yes I said it!) are all contained in the genetic makeup of practically every GSD. The strength of a particular sable dog to produce other schemes is accomplished with selective breeding over a period of several generations until the genetic predisposition to produce the chosen scheme is strong. Hence we now have the black/tan, black/red, bicolour, and black dogs and still have the sable. Practically every GSD regardless of the scheme has a sable presence regardless of the dog's general appearance. A close examination of the coat will reveal this presence even if it is very slight.

The ability to produce solid black is due to a recessive gene that is not "strong" in all lines, and the only matings that produce true black dogs are those in that both parents carry this recessive gene. It is of interest to note that professional breeders of the black/red variant occassionally introduce a sable mating every third generation or so in order to strengthen the scheme of the black/red dogs. The results from such a breeding are typically 50:50, i.e. 50% with a strong black/red coat and 50% with a sable coat.

Your last question-such a mating can produce some puppies who carry the recessive black gene but will not be true black themselves. The presence of this gene should be in 50% of the puppies, but none will be black unless the sable dam carries this recessive gene as well. Your question forces me to ask one (1) of mine as well, as I never owned or bred any black dogs. I suspect that when breeding a pair who both carry the recessive black gene that not all of the puppies are truely black even though the parents produce this scheme well. In my opinion 50% of the puppies will be black and the other 50% will be very dark and probably bicolour. All will carry the recessive black gene, even though all will not show it. That is my question for the breeders of the black dogs.

Regards,

Bob-O

One of my bitches (who is a sable) was bred three times, twice to solid black dogs and once to a black sable, all three times she had sables and dark bicolors, never a solid black or a black & tan.  I know that is not a technical post, but just giving my experience :)

VBK9, thank you for the input. Your outcome is exactly what I suspected. The black sable mate probably did not carry the recessive black gene, or it just was in the cards this time. That's the kind of experiences that I was looking for when I posed my question.

Regards,

Bob-O

both of my dogs black and tan male and a sable female carried recessive black gene and produced zed black , black n tan pups in every litter, no sables.

regards,

anand

Bred a black bitch from a black sire and a sable dam whose sire was a bicolor to a sable male - got sables & bicolor black and tans

bred 2 sables 4 different times and got - 1 sables & blacks, 2 sables, blacks & bi colors, 3. sables & blacks 4 all sables

bred a black sable bitch to  black males - 2 males - bred 3 times total  -never got a black from her - bitch has strong pigment and all the markings talked about in other threads - black male had plenty of black pups

VBK9,

Your comment on you sable bitch's breedings says to me that she does not carry the solid black gene. Unless the litters were really small. Small litters do not always show all of the genetic color combinations possible.

Not all sables carry solid black as BobO correctly says. A look into the color background of a dog before the first breeding should give you some idea as to whether they carry solid black or not.

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com castlebrookshepherds.net/enter.html

BOB O,

I have produced a few solid blacks and some that I thought to be solid black who turned out to be very dark bi-colors.  I believe that any combo that both have the recessive for solid black CAN produce true solid blacks, as well as all other combinations depending on their heritage. I believe it was Molly who answered a past post on whether a dog that has only color between his toes is really a solid black or just a very dark bi-color?    www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/50678.html#50721

There are also many other similar breeding discussions in past posts if you do a search for "solid black".

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com castlebrookshepherds.net/enter.html

Just a side note too...there are sables that will produce ONLY sables no matter what they are bred to.

Debby

Great input everyone. So far I am seeing what I thought to be true.

Regards,

Bob-O