Question on "pick of the litter" - Page 1

I have a question for the breeders.  How old does a litter have to be to know which is the "pick" and what criteria is used to decide?  It's probably a stupid question but I've wondered about it and never asked anyone. I realize a good breeder has a better eye than joe schmo but can you really tell when a dog is less than 3 months how it will turn out in adulthood or is it more of an educated guess? How often does the pick actually end up being the best in the litter? 

Thanks,

Cindi

Hi Cindi,

I mentioned this on a previous thread...there really is no universal "pick" of the litter.  Give three people the number one choice of the litter, and they will each pick three different puppies, be completely positive they got the "pick", and that the rest of the puppies are "leftovers".   Their "pick" was the best puppy in the litter for each of those persons for what they want to do with him.

A person who wants a high drive Schutzhund prospect that they hope to go to National competitions with will probably NOT pick the same puppy as someone who wants a family protective companion for a house full of small children.  But both people will think that they are getting the "pick" puppy.  It is possible to find both puppies in the same litter.  Every litter is different, and every pup in each litter is different, at least by a little, and often by a lot. 

Some litters are more uniform, with all the puppies being very high drives (for example) and every pup in that litter having the right temperament  and being capable of being (for example) a police dog or schutzhund prospect according to testing, and some litters have a big mix---(for example) some very high drive pups, some medium drive pups, and maybe even one low drive pup.  Besides prey drives, there are other temperament and talent possiblities:  a great nose, high or low pain threshold, civil drive, no civil drive, very dominant, very cooperative with human leadership, etc etc.

A breeder (and buyer) can only make a best guess at weaning age, using testing and observation, who is the right match for this or that person and the "job" they have in mind for the pup.  The person himself also needs to help pick the pup, even if they are doing so by long distance.  Even after weaning, the pup can change some as it matures and as it is exposed to a new environment.  High drives fall a bit, medium drives go up some (or sometimes a lot), etc.

I do several tests of my own for enviromental issues, scent ability, and prey drive.  I also do the Volhard puppy aptitude test. The Volhard PAT is only a snapshot of a moment in the puppy's life.  I've had a pup that did not do as well on the Volhard as the rest of the litter turn out to be, in my opinion, the best Schutzhund prospect in the litter.  I have seen another who knocked the test out of the ball park for hardness and prey drive, deliniating  indications of true Schutzhund ability and hardness---turn out a little soft and not so prey driven later.  The rest of the litter kind of DID line out just exactly as tested.

Here is one url for the Volhard PAT.  It includes the scoring information as well.  http://www.workingdogs.com/testing_volhard.htm

In the end, luck also has something to do with a good puppy choice that turns out to be exactly what you wanted.  That's why so many serious working dog people decide to purchase adult dogs, where you can see what you are getting.

Veronica

For "Conformation/Structure"...we choose our puppies at 6 weeks old.  Puppies change/grow so much after that age and go thru so many "awkward" stages, that we have found 6 weeks was the best age for us......and we have had very good success with that age determination.

As for temperment......as the breeder, you should be aware of the obvious short comings and potentials of all your puppies, because you have been with them since birth.  You should be able to watch them develope as individuals and as a pack......and make honest/educated assessments.

Again....this is just our way of doing things....other breeders may have their own "protocols" that work for them.

It depends on what day of the week it is!  there was an article in the USA magazine about Karthago kennel in germany.  many of the dogs from that kennel that won bsp and wusv,, were picks 3,4, or later.

makes one wonder how much of it is genetics, and how much is good training?

there's some food for thought.

nature vs. nurture?

john

Thank you, very informative answers!  I know what I look for but always wondered what the breeder thought of as the pick. You've pretty much cleared that up.  The best dog for me may not be the "pick" for someone else. 

The older the better. I like to wait until at least 8 weeks of age for both structure and their mental aspects.

Pick of the litter will depend on the purpose of the breeding, show dogs,pet,workinging etc.

a breeders of show dogs will place more importance on the conformation,movement and color for their selection as best pick.

a breeder of working dogs will place more importance on the drives,confidence and nerves of the pups for first pick.

i had first pick a few years ago on a show litter and the breeder had selected the pick of the litter but after viewing them i took the one she had selected as second pick of the litter.  this pup had more confidence and in  my opinion better nerves which suited my preferences.  I admit if i was a true show person then i likely would have taken the otherdue to it having the more preferred conformation and movement plus the best color of the litter.  but i like a gsd with strong personality so to me the pick of the litter was the # 2 pup.

everyones pick is dfferent.  any breeder who spends time with his pups and watches them playing and in their surrounds, new and differnet,  should know what pup is most dominant, which is most confident etc - experienced show breeders can look at structure early on as is mentioned and tell which is likely to be better

all these world class dogs for sale - but like someone said - nature or nurture.  how many puppy buyers are world class trainers?  better to get a pup who is from solid proven dogs - whose brothers and sisters are titled if old enough - than one from high volume producer who has something for everyone, mixing up types etc etc  a "good" breeder has goals and pups should be doing what you want to do that you can check on - they should be able to send you to trainers/clubs where there dogs are gettign trained and titled & those in pet homes

JRT

Very true..hard to go wrong if both parents are strong with strong pedigrees.....no matter which pup is selected.

They best gsd i ever had was the third selection and she turned out to be the best working dog of the bunch (in my opinion) but the other pups turned out excellent as well. Mine was the best scenting though..

Hi John,

I read that article too, it was very interesting!  You bring out some good points.

From what I see, making a pick involves more than just trying to get the best one for the job, it's emotional too, so color, esthetics, size, etc are a part of what makes a person pick one puppy over another.  Few even really serious Schutzhund people (in my experience so far) pick a puppy based strictly on observation and testing of the working attributes of the puppy.

Also, puppies continue to change after weaning...the "wiring" of their brains continues to make new connections, etc, and then environment has a huge affect on the puppy too.

This has been a fun discussion.  I had not even thought about discussing the role of "structure" in the pick, being a working dog person.  Of course, you want a really well structured dog who can perform the work and look pretty doing it, though many of us disagree as to what that means.  I read the webpage recommended on the thread "Problems between Show breeders and working breeders".  Wow, was that really informative.  I read most of it. I plan to finish it and do some comparisons on pedigrees. 

I really would like to see more V-rated working bred dogs, and it would be awesome of the dog that won the BSP also went VA (pipe dream!)...but on the other hand, what do you do when you have a short legged homely dog as your Schutzhund prospect who has everything you need to maybe go to the higher levels (even as a novice trainer), and she has everything, tempermentally, that you are looking for in your program despite her short legs? Sigh.

Veronica

it is easy for me... if you don't have the drives, nerves,confidence and temperement then you have nothing...