Questions about herding - Page 1

Okay.  I have no experience with dogs doing any kind of herding.  Recently I came into possession of 3 billy goats.  They are the "fainting" goats.  They only "faint" when they are startled (like coming up behind them and banging pots and pans together) and not when they are afraid or scared.  They faint for just a few seconds.  Two of them have very long horns, like a Texas Long Horn steer has.  The other has the curved horns like handlebars on a ten speed bike.  Anyway.  I have ten acres of which about six or seven is wooded.  These goats were given to me and I figured they could "thin out" the overgrowth in the woods.  They are doing that well.

My questions:  To train the GSD to herd, do you have to raise the dog from a pup in the company of whatever they are going to herd?  Is two years old too old to train them to herd. if they have had no contact with farm animals previously?  Is it possible to herd goats with dogs without the dogs getting hurt, if the goats have very long and wide set horns, as the goats challenge the dogs through their fence and actually raise up on their hind legs and "ram" into the fence wihen the dogs are on the other side and barking at them?  Would untrained GSD's, if given the opportunity, chase down and kill sheep or goats, or is it in them "naturally" to only chase and nip?  My gut feeling is that if I left my dogs in with the goats, they would kill them and probably eat them eventually, if I was not there to stop them

I decided to see what would happen with nature and I let one female shepherd with the goats in their fenced in section and the goats formed a circle and the dog just stood near them barking.  I then let the male GSD in with the goats and the female, and the dogs immediately attacked the three goats, seperating one from the other two and chased it, biting at it.  I would not have done this if I was not confident in that my dogs would come to me when called and they did.  No goats were hurt.  I have seen dogs herd sheep, which is different from horned billy goats.  If I am going to raise these fainting goats for fun, then I might want to train my GSD's to herd them.  I have to investigate it more and see what all it will take.  Might be more trouble than it is worth.  The goats go where I want them to, just by me shaking a coffee can filled with corn and leading them.  Their previous owner taught them that.

get a police car with a siren and herd them     havent u ever done that when cows got on the highway when you were an officer......?????

No.  There are no cows in downtown Cleveland.  Plenty of predators and prey though.

My suggestion would be to find someone in your area that does sheep herding training.  There are some videos on you tube of what it looks like for a dog to properly herd 3 sheep/goats.  This one is a decent one.  There should not be any chasing or biting.  You want the group to stay together and the dog should not split off any goat, otherwise you risk the goat getting hurt.  Where do you live?  My dogs work in the "tending" style of sheep herding, so it looks a bit different than that.  Main difference being a large flock.  I'm off to work, but would be more than happy to answer any questions that you have later on this evening.  And you are correct in thinking that your dogs would "eat" or do some damage if left alone with them. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDPFCfrkp3o

Thanks.  I have seen herding trials many times on TV.  It is amazing how the dogs work.  My questions were aimed at finding out if the GSD has "inherent" protectiveness of farm animals, or does it have to be taught?  Am I wrong in assuming that they protect farm animals?  In herding, are they controlling their desire to kill the animals, due to their masters control?  Is herding "prey" drive redirected?

Is that an animal hospital (infimary) in the picture, or a human hospital?

Do Right:

1  Most herding dogs, especially if not trained and/or supervised, WILL attack and kill livestock.   I started one dog herding at age 8, so no they don't have to be raised with livestock. 

2.  Goats can be herded using dogs, but they do not flock very well and are a challenge for even a trained dog. 

3.  GSDs are herding dogs, not necessarily "livestock guardian" dogs.  The dogs that guard livestock, live with the sheep and protect against predators.  They are not used for moving or managing the sheep, and in fact, may attack a herding dog as it is using it's "predatory" instincts to move the livestock.   That's not to say a GSD can't develop a protective attitude with "their" livestock, it's just something that takes time and training. 

4.  Please try and get some instruction and/or help with herding.  The dogs really try and do what you want, but it takes time for them to learn what you want them to do.  If you don't get the message across, they think they need to do "something" and that something usually turns into a mess.  The combination of a nervous, inexperienced handler and dog doesn't make for calm efficient livestock handling. 

5.  Think hard about if you want your dogs hurt doing this or not.  I don't work my dogs on cattle because I don't want them kicked in the head and hurt.  One of my dogs was not watching all the sheep properly and got hit broadside and was plowed through a fence by a belligerant ewe.  He was definitely sore for a few days, and the sheep didn't have any horns.  Hate to think of horns skewering my dog. 

6.  Herding is a really rewarding activity and it really satisfies my dogs mentally and physically to do it.  If you decide to try it, please work with someone who has good, dog-broke sheep to start. 

Good luck with the goats.  If they will come when you call them, I would do that. 

Thanks very much Dash.  That is exactly the info I was wanting addressed.  I think I am not going to get into the herding sport. 

Very well said Dash!

Apparently my brain was not working well enough this early A.M. to come up with that. 

And yes, I do think that you are better off just calling your goats with the feed can!