Question about breeding son & daughter of same father. - Page 1

Hello,

When I was browsing through one dogs pedigree I came across a female Luci Hirschel. She was born on 4.7.1994. What amazed me most is that she is result of breeding Fanto Hirschel's Son (Nufo Wienerau) to Fanto Hirschel's Daughter ( Ines Romebrunnen). I think today by rule the linebreeding can not be closer than 2-3. In this case it is 2-2. Then in that case was this rule was not effective in 1994. Also worth mentioning is that this female is not bred by any small unknown kennel it is one from most reputed and famous kennel in Germany.  Or is it a simple case of posting a wrong pedigree on this site.

2-2 is being very much done even today. Depends where the breeding happened. There is nothing wrong in 2-2. Normally you have to get the breeding approved by SV to get the pink papers and registration for the pups. There are some great dogs on this website which are 2-2 and have perfect temprament and health. The breeder has to have sound knowledge of the bloodlines thats all. So to say.

Thank You Vikram    I just got a scolding by a preacher by email, that I had been breeding incest in my bloodlines and that u dont breed a son  of a mother to a daughter of same mother  with two completely different bloodline fathers......i.e.   Austin was bred to Shon Thara and produced Abby  welldone,          Austin.>Camerons Gator vom Wolffhaus sire    dam: Bouncing Bali

Shon Thara  Sire: Dieter drie Konige    dam: Bouncing Bali     He had a deposit on a litter and said I dont want a pup out of that .....said the Bible says you dont do that...I just shut mouth and am not addressing him or his partner and no refund either......

Lasso di Val sole and Anja vom Reststrauch and Herzog vom Adelago are top and bottom on my Zilla v Weiherturchen who is my foundation mothers line....these were  not 2-2 but done under the sv and  all my german pedigrees have some pretty close linebreeding, my reference list proves the good health and high quality of what has been produced and I was shocked at his telling me I didnt know what I was doing  ,,

I'm certainly no expert on God's word, but my thought was the references in the bible refered to humans, not animals?  I also can't comment on whether your specific linebreeding will work well for you?  Time will tell.  If he was unaware of the close linebreeding when he made his deposit, then I would refund the deposit in full.  He didn't have full disclosure at the time of the deposit.  It won't hurt to give his money back, even though he did give you a sharp scolding.  I believe many animals of all species are often inbred in farming?   

My 2 cents...hope it helps.

Sue-Ann

www.selectshepherds.com

2/2 breeding ... it is not line-breeding . as newcomers should know ..it is inbreeding / incest. !! that being a fact .. it should be considered an abomination ! HOWEVER ... this is done with / and should be  , with  the only PURPOSE to IDENTIFY certain and specific genetic traits . The offspring hence forth should not be bred and should be place as home companions. I also feel that proper disclosure should be made available to.

In the wild this happens all the people in many breeds of aninals.

So if both parents are outcrosses, that is they are from the same father but totally different dam lines. They can be used for an inbreeding, or is it ok to do an inbreeding when the father's are the same and dam lines are close to the father lines, or both dams have similar pedigrees?

Vikram is correct that the S.V. will occassionally allow a 2-2 linebreed, or inbreed as it is more commonly called. This permission must be granted before the breeding takes place, and it does not occur so often these days. The dog and bitch must be able to reinforce and reproduce outstanding qualities.

In the hands of a very skilled breeder it does obviously work to reinforce the good qualities. But, it also reinforces any bad qualities if they exist, hence the request for permission to do this type of breeding is met with much scrutiny. I do not see a serious issue doing this, provided the breeder is highly-skilled in the assessment of genetic distribution and what will be the outcome. Since I do not qualify as a skilled breeder then I will never do it, and would be hesitant to purchase a dog from such a breeding due to my ignorance of this type of breeding.

For example, examine some older A.K.C. pedigrees, and go back to the early 1960's when the GSD was beginning to make a heavy presence in the A.K.C. show scene. Especially look at the progeny, direct and indirect, of the Lance of Fran-Jo. Many times one will see half-brother times half-sister and sometimes see the Lance times one (1) of his daughters, and so forth. This use of the Lance was perhaps the most blatant example of not linebreeding so much as it was incest breeding. Past this, how did it affect the dog we nowadays know as the Am-bred A.K.C. GSD? Some, a lot, none at all since it was so long ago? Beats me. This was not limited of course to the A.K.C., but was done under the watchful eyes of the S.V. as well. I just cannot cite a specific example of a S.V. sire who was used for incest breeding to the same degree as was the Lance of Fran-Jo, but I am sure that someone else here can. And yes, I know the A.K.C. has no problem registering a litter from an incest breeding-it just requires a different registration application.

Is it a sin? Wow, that's a good one. This behaviour has gone on between dogs since the existence of the canid species. And remember this; during the founding of the GSD breed, there were but four (4) dogs and four (4) dams involved.

Regards,

Bob-O

And Guys, may I add... you only do inbreeding 2-2 to expose what the primary individual actually passes on to his or her get... breeding to see what is the most inheritable good and bad points, contained in the individuals gene bank ... and then find an outcross individual who passes on qualities that could correct what ever shortcomings your foundation animals have...And Alphapup is right you dont breed the outcome ( you have to cull if not spay or neuter, because visible faults will definitely appear ) You only then find the progeny that closely resembles the foundation dog and then must make sure it it better than the actual or at least maintain the standards of  the GSD... NICE TOPIC...

have a nice day....  Marci  :)

Sumo,

Lucy's pedigree here is incorrect!!!!

She is not linebred 2-2 on Fanto vom Hirschel. Lucy's parents are VA-Nero vom Hirschel and V-Ines vom Roemerbrunnen, which makes her linebred 2-3 on Ica vom Haus Reiterland. Still a close linebreeding, but permissable. While it is true that the SV would have to grant permission for a 2-2 linebreeding prior to that breeding, it is really seldom done nowadays. Baldur Schulte certainly would not! Quite a few linebreedings were done on Ica, though. It produced beautiful dogs, but you had to be careful with hips.

The 2-2 linebreeding regulation is a relique from the 60s and 70s. We have enough diversities now that nobody has to do that. Plus, I doubt that the SV will grant permission that easily!

Chris