What would you do with the "failures" - Page 1

Most GSD puppy sellers (the honorable ones) give contracts with their sales, which usually state that the pup is guaranteed in some way, shape or form, in connection with HD, but these guarantees usually only last one year (overseas there are very few guarantees like this).  Whether contracts are worthwhile having anyway has been discussed in other threads on this site.  Having said all of that, I have a few questions for any who wish to address them.

1)  What would you do or what have you done, If you purchased a GSD pup for breeding or working purposes and two years later, you discover it has moderate or sever HD?

2)  What would you do or what have you done if you purchased a GSD pup from overseas, with no guarantee whatsoever, for working or breeding purposes, and two years later you find out it has moderate or sever HD?

3)  If you had limited space, time and money, and the puppies you purchased for working and/or breeding purposes, did not "pan out" for your purposes, for whatever reason/s, what would you do with that/those dogs?  Do you replace them and get another/others?  What have you done with dogs in those situations or what would you do with dogs in those situations?  Do you sell them?  Do you put them down?  Do you keep them around and get others even though it is very difficult having twice as many dogs as you originally intended?  If you did/would sell them, would you be honest to whomever you sold them to (of course  :), and do you think "others" are honest when they "get rid" of dogs like these?

As a side note, I see a littermate brother of my male up for sale on here.  If you are interested, here is the database link (no, I do not know these owners, apparently it is overseas somewhere :)  I see that his hips also are "fast normal", as is my male.   My female came back as "Good" just yesterday, from OFA

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/41964.html

I personally would not purchase a dog for breeding purposes  that is not guaranteed for the hips to OFA Fair or better.  did that once learned my lesson !

I also would not purchase overseas.  without the same type of guarantee, for a breeding dog. 

We purchased a dog that was to be shown by my daughter,  However he has a crypt orchid so no show for him,  He stays !  We had purchased 2 females ( No guarantees at all)  with hopes they would turn out nice enough to introduce into breeding,  they did not and so are being placed into new homes.  Yes under contract,  and Yes I would be honest and disclose any "Health Issues" I am aware of,  Our guarantees state if the dog does not work out,  they can bring it back for full refund,  does me no good to attempt to hide something,  That would ruin my credibility, break a purchasers heart,  and just cause alot of bouncing for the dog,  Not fair. 

As far as not panning out,  Some of them we will try to place so long as that is an appropriate thing for that specific dog.  I have the 2 females who could care less,  the crypt orchid,  No way he would never make it with anyone else.  2 pups that came back to us,  one of them I will be placing once we have some more training under him,  he's excelling in sch. and will be nice for the right person.

Good ?'s,  there are my answers.... 

My female who I titled in AKC OB and (at the time) planned on breeding, ended up OFA-ing Moderate HD and was spayed.  I was totally shocked, there were absolutely no indications, I was devistated.  Years later and much wiser I now relize she's not  "breed worthy" anyway, so perhaps it was for the better.

Anyway, I kept her...entirely too emotionally connected to part with her .  Trading her in was never an option.

However if or when I do it again, knowing what I know now, and understanding HD is always a possibility when raising a young pup...I HOPE that I can think with my head and not with my heart next time.  As it is now...I am left with two PETS (1 is an AM bred and 1 has HD) and 1 Awesome working dog who will probably retire within the next two years.  I HAVE NO ROOM FOR A NOTHER PUP/DOG, therefore when he retire's I might have to take several years off SchH until a "spot" opens.  I don't want to make it sound like I'm waiting for one of my "kids" to "pass", far from it.  But this has taught me If I'm going to become serious about this sport or breeding (someday) I either have to think with my head or sell my house ditch my husband and move to a farm.

Even knowing from the get go, "if he can't work he's going back"  I still see it being very difficult.  This is why my next pup will likely be an older pup/young adult who has already been pre-limed.  I'm not interested in going through that whole ordeal again anytime soon.   The only way I'd raise another pup is if it's a pup I kept from my male.

Generally buying pups from overseas.  It is what it is, you buy knowing nothing is guaranteed.  BUT the cost of the pup is generally very reasonable...one of my friends purchased two pups from Belgium for the price of what one would cost here (roughly $1,500).  So basically if the first doesnt' pan out, you bought it cheap enough that you could go buy another to "replace" it.  IMO thats the same as a guaranteed USA pup for $1500.

Regards,

Melanie

My 8 yr old female was bought for a breeding prospect.  When I got her hips done, much to my surprise she had unilateral HD.  The breeder offered to take her back and replace her with a year old dog who had never been socialized.  But she refused to refund my $$ without taking the dog back.  I decided to just keep her--I had her spayed and she will be here until she dies. 

Guarantees would be great if they could guarantee the dog would not have hip dysplasia, but they can't.  Too many variables & still not enough knowlege of how much is environmental vs heridtary .  So for me, I look for a breeder who knows what he's doing because I feel like that's the best way I can stack the deck in my dogs favor on that end & then try to do everything I can to raise the dog right.  Even so, it would still not be uncommon for a dog to end up dysplastic.  Not the breeders fault & not my fault, just the luck of the draw.

1. 2. & 3.  Keep the dog & do everything under the sun to keep him comfortable & happy, BUT I would not fault anyone who would choose to rehome a dog or even put a dog down depending on the circumstances, of course. 

As to the honesty question, if someone places a dog as a pet & tells the new owner about the hips then that person is honest.

I agree with GSDfan.  If you are looking to be a serious competitor & don't have a lot of room or time, you should buy a dog that's been xrayed - puppies are a lot of fun, but for sure they are also a crapshoot.

Gawd this post hits a little too close to home.  My current SchH prospect bears the tongue-in-cheek tatoo... YDG6 because he's the 6th dog that I've tried to do SchH with.  So let me try to remember what became of each...

1) Pet quality GSD female that I tried to do SchH with before knowing any better - sold to pet home 

2) Prey monster GSD male that was all prey and no defense - sold to a lady who does AKC OB, Tracking, and Agility

3) Very well bred GSD male that had soft ears that wouldn't stand after 3 months of taping - returned to breeder for refund, placed in pet home

4) Import GSD male that I paid big bucks for with high hopes, but acted like a spook - returned to importer

5) First DDR/Czh GSD male that had only one testicle descend - sold to pet home

6) #5's littermate and my current great hope... so far so good.

I have some very rotten luck with GSD's, and reasonably high standards, so there's been a lot of turnover.  It really sucks because it does hurt to part with them, but I only have time for one dog, and I know what my goals are, and what I want out of a dog.  I can tolerate some "flaws" - #6 is a small male with legs a bit on the short side IMO, but this does not matter much to me as he is the most athletic dog I've had.  The smaller size helps with his agility and stamina.  He turns 2 this summer and he'll get his X-rays and I've got my fingers crossed.  Bad hips/elbows is about the only serious fault that I haven't run into yet, so I'm afraid I'm "due".  D'oh!

Yvette

Wow, I guess that I've been really lucky so far.  I'm on my 3rd GSD and all have had good hips and elbows.  The first I really only "played" a bit in Schutzhund and by the time I got serious about it she was too old to really get her going, so don't know how she would have turned out there.  She's the resident fun police in the house.  :)  I really don't think that I could part with any of them, I get too attached.   The second and third GSD's 5 1/2 and 2 respectively are doing well in their "work"  I got them both to be herding dogs and get the german herding title and that they've both lived up to.  The Schutzhund turned out to be a bonus for both of them and my male is working towards the 3. Granted, he's not the best Schutzhund dog in the world, but we can get the job done.  Especially since, come trial day, he's handler impaired do to my bad nerves!  So going to be working alot on me for the next trial!  Third dog we are really just starting with alot of it as she was too busy getting her herding title at 18 months, so she's a work in progress. 

I have kept the dogs I bought as pups and did not pan out in whatever way... except one. I bought him as a Sch/breeding propect. He was dysplastic at 6 months (unilateral), re-xrayed at 10 months hoping the xray was wrong but the one hip was worse. Placed him in a pet home because I did get a 5 year old for a replacement and they wanted to kill each other. This hurt really bad letting him go, I did love that boy, so I told myself I would never ,ever let working or breeding make me let another pup or dog go that I felt that way about. I just lost Willow at 12+ years, she was severely dysplastic amongst other problems, and still have Yette almost 10, bad elbow and temperment. I did tell the people who took Jake about his hip. I could not do that to someone even for a pet. I don't know if others are always honest, I am sure some people aren't.....

I do have a 6 month Kirschental girl that has no guarantee, she was imported at 8 weeks. Hell could freeze over before she will go anywhere, no matter what goes on with her physically or mentally! Got my fingers crossed she is a sweetheart, well one that is full of the devil!

Wanted to add that all of my dogs also came with no guarantees as far as hip displasia goes either.  And one was an import from Germany as well.

my 13 mo male gsd has indications of dysplasia in his hips and we recently had to have surgery on his elbow to remove a bone fragment. the specialist said the removal of the fragment will alleviate arthritus in his elbow, but not cure it, and he said the hips may not ever give him trouble. our breeder was very upset and immediately offered a refund or a new pup. we thanked them sincerely and said no. the specialist said that he grew too rapidly ( he was rc lg breed puppy) and that was prob the cause. our pup has had recurring probs w/pano since he was "little". he's kind of a moose. i keep him lean, but he's about 85 lbs or so. the breeders see him fairly often for obed classes and they always check him for weight. if i was a breeder or schutzhund i might have to deal w/this differently, but we are "pet" owners. we always intended to neuter him and we did at ~1 yr old. the parents of this pup are both good or better hips; the surgeon said that doesn't always guarantee anything. i can't imagine (having no investment other than pet owner) making the decision to place the dog elsewhere. i guess this is only one of the many reasons why i will never be a breeder. my question to breeders/showers is this - do you "fix" the dog before you place him/her in another home? or do you make it a requirement for the new owners?