Inzucht 2-2 auf Belschik v. Eicken-Bruche, 3-3 Troll boesenNachbarschaft?? - Page 1

I am looking at a litter right now that is linebred 2-2 on Belschik v.Eicken-Bruche, I think this close linebreeding was done a few times in belgium and germany already with great results. I also spoke with the owner of Belschik who said it was a really good idea with this combination because the mother lines are totally different from eachother. I am wondering, if I can hear from anyone that has first hand knowledge of this type of breeding, especially since Belschik was a really great producer. I already know about the risk of this type of breeding, just thought I would see if anyone actually has dogs linebred on Belschik or linebred 3-3 on Troll vd boesenNachbarschaft, and what can be said about them.

Doug

Dougsport, I think I know the litter you are talking about (is it in Belgium?). IMO you have to consider the fact that with any breeding there are risks, and that these lines, although are super, still are not the end-all, solve-all, guarantee to get a super dog... it will take proper imprinting and socializing  and training...

If you are just looking to get an "easy fix", take a puppy from a different litter and ruin that!! ;-) no seriously, as long as you understand the work that goes intoit, you should be okay. Take a CALM, relaxed and stable puppy from the litter - as I have seen some insane drive levels in Belschik direct offspring, Belschik linebred puppies, which is a GREAT thing if you can handle it.... in the long run the relaxed, confident and calm puppies have turned out to be the best IMO.... They will for sure have "IT" genetically!!!

Good to see you on the pdb, and good luck!!!

David

I think there are a  few breeders on this discussion board that have done linebreedings on Beschik.... Anybody want to chime in on what you have seen so far??? I'd be interested to hear as well because I've got two litters in the planning that will be linebred 3-3 on Belschik. FYI. David 

Once you have a 2-2 on Belschik you no longer consider the 3-3 on Troll as you go with the most recent common denominator, which is the 2-2 on Belschik. Without special permission by the SV a 2-2 line breeding is not possible in Germany, so who ever said that.... most likely a bunch of cowpatties. Few breeders would bother with the extra hassle involved. No idea how Belgium handles it but probably allows it. Ask what previous breedings in particular, if it has been done before you should be able to see what pups were the result of such breedings and then see if you like what such breedings produced.

Close line breedings like that often turn out to be very good or very bad, or have both very good and very bad in the same litter. It is an extreme breeding which usually produces extreme results. Question is what will it produce and why this was done? The breeder may want to lock in the sire for future foundation stock and compound certain aspects of the sire, but there is no guarantee that it will compound only the good. Breedings like that are usually considered control breedings because it tends to paint a clearer picture about the good and the bad in what the closely line bred dog produces, providing the breeder does not turn a blind eye (very hard not to) and only considers the one good pup out of such a breeding and dismissed the bad. Hard to tell in young pups which way the breeding went. Only obvious mishaps will be something you can tell early on in a young pup, the rest will show later during development. So it can go either way.

Hard to tell what the two motherlines bring to the table and what their influence will be. Even with a close line breeding like that, just having an outcross on the motherlines means nothing without knowing what they are. The females are probably line bred to some dogs, certain traits may be predominant in the motherlines, etc. Without knowing what the goal of this breeding was and what the motherlines also bring to the table it is hard to make any recommendation. Unless I was an absolute fan of that dog and followed the same breeding goal I would personally not consider a pup out of a 2-2 line breeding. I would however do such a breeding myself IF (big if) I saw a real benefit and was willing to accept all the negative and the risks such a breeding might bring with it.

David, 
line breedings of 2-3, 3-3, 2-4 and vice versa usually work better than the 2-2, while I would personally prefer to concentrate on the motherline and ideally would go with a 3-2 and 4-2 line breeding on maleX, therefore keep the male I want to line breed too stronger on the motherside. If there are other line breedings with the same breeding they should be a bit further back than that, and not too many. Then either go wide with the next generation, or close one more time before going wide.

3-3 can produce some very interesting results and I would certainly not dismiss it. All these breedings are close enough to still compound on the traits heavily but have enough outside material to level things out a bit. Then yes, look for a middle of the road pup as extremes can often take a line off onto a different tangent than the original goal was.

Breeding is mostly trying, so by all means try. If the two breedings have the same line breeding but different motherlines, having two litters like that gives you something to compare to and see what traits get passed on despite the difference in the motherlines. Though 2 breedings are not really enough to tell much, if it works well it is a good starting point for more.

Doug, 
if you are unsure about the Belschik litter, we are expecting a co-bred litter with a partner kennel in WV. Sire is 4 times BSP, 5 times LGA competitor, incl LGA Sieger and Reserve Sieger, a Lewis Malatesta grandson with superb working ability and attitude, super fit for his age and with an absolutely top disposition. The dam is a SchH3 Haus Gremm female out of Bandit Oberhausener Kreuz/Wumm Kaisersäule on her dam's side, very strong drives, a bit on the civil side, hard female, but very good disposition. Very interesting combination. Both dogs combine old line pedigrees. The litter is due around July 20th. If this may be an option for you, we are still accepting some reservations for males.

Pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=32996&modir=333461