There MUST be a Reason! - Page 1

I have seen several threads on here dissing the banana backs of the German showline dogs, but NO ONE has been able to explain the reason behind it. Things began to change in the late 60's-early 70's. Can someone please explain the reason?

This was the same time the conformation of the American Shepherd began to change (and not for the better, IMO!) Everyone began to selecto for extreme angulation, all in the name of 'better' movement and sidegate. At least, in that case, we know the reason. But I have never seen anyone explain the reason for those UGLY banana backs!

Simply esthetics that  was accepted by most ,and not  natural ,nor functionalas shold be.!!!

Try to look for answers in the Banana Republic... and maybe you can get answers...

gsdlvr2 is correct that it stemmed as a fix to the lengthening of the back just to sustain a good forward inertia while in movement.  German breeders relate it to the keystone of an arch being a stronger back and usually the roach subsides... I remember seing a German breeder who pushes down the back of a young dog and see if it reacts and goes up on a roach..saying the back is firm... they're probably trying to copy the back of Hyenas and greyhounds who contract their backs to gain speed on a quick launch...but the GSD is not a running dog...HE is a TROTTER...this needs to be corrected... The ROACH coupled with poor shoulders and a short croup..make it look like a banana...needless to say should be corrected and gradually settle down and straighten to a short back... You may have a straight back but if it is longer than the croup...Tsk..tsk..tsk... you'll  not make to high conformation ratings...

Sunsilver, check out the post by Preston at this link: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/41563.html#41575

Preston made an excellent explanation of why and how this happened. Why is it still prevalent with the European showline? Basically because the S.V. has sometimes overlooked this type of back as a "fault" as they have sometimes overlooked excessive height and length. Through this negligence (careful here) the banana back is very common today. Often the curve is not as bad as it appears, as the dogs are often pulled into a very unnatural pose for the picture. For this reason it is best tp make the determination when the dog is standing or moving naturally.

But, one must properly define the topline to determine if a dog truely has a banana back. If the top of the "hump" is higher than the withers, then it definitely is a fault. A correct GSD topline has a slight upward arch, but it should be barely distinguishable under the hair and flesh. This upward arch improves the strength of the spine and does not allow it to sag very much when the dog is old. I know the dogs of many years past did not have such a pronounced upward curve in their spine, but a lot of the curvature nowadays seen comes from a croup that is too steep and an rear carriage that is overangulated. Both are detrimental for smooth movement of the dog.

Just my thoughts,

Bob-O

Thanks, Bob-O! You're a gold mine of information!   That's a wonderful, informative thread. I notice the female side of Natan Pelztierfarm's pedigree DOES have a number of ancestors with really long backs.

And I'm very glad my pup has Ursus von Batu as her grandad!   No roaches there!

Just why is Ursus so popular as a sire? Okay, he's VA1, but there are other VA1's out there. Has anyone here seen him in the ring? And is he still alive?

And Bob-O.. would you mind me asking...why we dont see too may pronounced withers nowadays?... yes the back should be straight and it is accentuated when it connects directly to the inclined neck... but if you will notice the OLD conformation having pronounced withers similar to all working breeds, todays lines have a neck that directly connects to a short straight back then the long croup... Is it because the GSD is a herding dog and herding dogs dont have pronounced withers to propel them forward better??? need your opinion about this... and Thanks in advance...   :) Marci

Marci, if one will accept the postulate that the GSD of today is a manufactured breed, and not a naturally-occurring one then one can see an evolution of sorts in the physical structure and appearance of the dog during the last one-hundred years-nearly as long as the breed has been recognised as a separate breed of dog. These changes were done through selective breeding of course, and as certain traits became more pronounced, it had a detrimental effect on others.

For a lack of better words, I guess the appearance of the GSD today is largely the result of personal taste-the personal tastes of the larger breeders and the judges for the S.V.. There is no mystery here, as merely an examination of the photographs of dogs from the past indicate a man-made evolutionary change in the appearance of the dogs.

The GSD is intended to be a herding dog, and a herding dog must have the ability to trot all day. The need for high-speed motion is not so important as is the stamina and endurance required to work all day. But whereas we once had one (1) GSD breed we now have a breed that has split into at least three (3) different directions.

I don't think that any of us prefer a dog who looks like Horand Grafath, mainly because we all have a mental image of how a correct (in our opinion) GSD looks. And, this image has been cultivated from the first time we saw a GSD to the most recent one we viewed.

Regards,

Bob-O

lol - I dont know that I prefer a dog that looks like Horand - but a dog that looks like Klodo V. Boxburg - that's a dog I would very much prefer.

This thread is awsome - and it is something I have been wondering myself for a while...thanks for asking the questions sunsilver and marci, and thanks for the answers bob-o - this is very informative!

~Cate

No Bob-O... what I mean is... I know the GSD is supposed to be a Working dog consider herding as its original role... I wonder why FCI reclassified it, and it now belongs to the herding group together with the Collies and Belgian shepherds... It was replaced by the Siberian Husky and if you will notice all working group dogs has withers pronounced...look  at the Belgian Mals.. it too has a pronounced wither and a dipped back...which I think should be as offensive in looks as the banana backs in GSD terms... I understand the S.V. is not affected by this because they require Working Trials before a dog can reach high honors...

So the dog remains a working dog with herding ancestry... and because the old GSD conformation was "made for work " ( thats probably why they have strong withers..) Can I postulate the new GSD is not conformed to work other than run in show rings...