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by parako on 04 June 2007 - 04:06
Hi everyone, greetings..
I wonder if any of you could please give me a bit of enlightenment about breeding process for GSD. You all notice that every year in Siegerschau breeders mostly in Germany or some other European Countries like Italy-Spain-Hungaria etc can come up with some really good dogs especially in JKL or JHKL (of course there are also some only "good" dogs with political connections, but I dont want to discuss about these either the preparation or training of the dogs when they came up to age for show). When they want to breed, do they consider the theory of mendel for their planned breeding, do they really care about the phenotype or genotype of the two dogs? or just counting on their feelings?. Some of the breeders I met in Germany usually simply said that breeding needs a long time work to build the breeding base and brains until coming up with the top results without wanting to explain further about this. And yes, some of german famous kennels in '90-'00 era had long history back in '60 or '70. For example perhaps we know some female dogs have been used for breeding 4-5x without any good offsprings, but suddenly in the sixth breeding she can come up with one top offspring in show with certain male. Happy to see this, the breeder usually did a repeated breeding with the same male but the result back on average again with no top offspring. Don't you think in her sixth breeding there was luck beyond theory?. I guess the breeder also had no idea what her offspring will be like at the sixth breeding after 5x breeding without good result. We know that a repeated breeding of Ursus Batu and Connie Farbenspiel didnt come up as Yasko again, unfortunatey (perhaps with many factors unknown to us) Solo Frutetto only managed to get SG 16 in JHKL '01. While we observe that Vienchen Arlett could consistenly produce excellent males and females in her producing period as breeding female. So again, do any of you know how the breeders REALLY think and consider before they do their breeding? yes perhaps some can be explained by theory . But I am afraid that many of good dogs are (perhaps) the result of luck and coincidences. If all breeding or producing top litters can be explained and resulted by theory, I guess the show arena will still be dominated with the same top kennels from time to time (with conditions : free from power shifting politics and as long as the breeders or their predecessors still live and healthy). But in reality, we know some top kennels with true very good breeding results and hold dominations for some years or decade but yet now are nowhere to be found? It shows perhaps, only perhaps..that luck has something to do with their success, when luck leaves them they can no longer produce a good dogs even if they try and try again their formula that used to work well before. Any opinions dear friends??
by skywalker on 04 June 2007 - 07:06
I like what you have started here. Well i am with you on this . Breeding show winners is luck but breeding good quality dogs are through practice and there has to be some theory to it. For Instanse how many times do we see a VA Sire and VA Dam producing even half as good dogs as them. But so many times a lower rated dog at shows throw so much better with decent line females so called the brood bitch.VA is marketing making sure the game is sustained and people who are involved make good money. I belive a smart breeder will never sell his good stock and what he sells he will make sure he makes it sound like the best dog in th kennel. Like i have visited kennels and seen dogs for sale are always better kept and when you compare the breeder tell you the differences and you buy into that. But if you see at the show the same dog who dint look at as good in his kennel is completely a different dog. Like an athelete on drugs. But that why he is a breeder and a buyer can only hope to get a good dog from him.There are kennels which have reputation from years but then when the pendulum of politics shifts in one kennels favour the game changes and you are led to believe they breed the best type dogs. So over all its a sport and like all sports politics does play a pivotal position. Breeding is pure luck as for last 5 years iam trying to get lucky as all theories i have applied have not worked.
Just My Luck!!!!!!
by Kenan on 04 June 2007 - 07:06
What German breeders told you was the thruth. It takes time and experience, it is not easy and yes you need a bit of luck. Every breeder has his own ideas about breeding and the breed itself. These do not necessarily need to be the same, they can be sometimes completely different, but the goal should be the same. To hold domination in breeding , like in anything else, is posible for a certain period but dogs come and dogs go and you need to identify who can actually continue to elevate the breed. There are breeders and Breeders if you know what I mean.
The seecret of breeding? If there was one, real SECRET, by now it would be revealed, rest assured. You must have a goal in front of you, try to reach it, DO YOUR BEST. When you are happy with your dogs, you are there.
by marci on 04 June 2007 - 18:06
Old proverb says... "Marry not only the best person in a Clan..." its a careful study of Standards and trends. Very few kennels were lucky enough to get same good results out of a repeated breeding. That is where history plays...you should try to learn how these great kennels and great dogs came to be. Lucky for you if a breeder shares his secret (then it won't be a SECRET anymore) As a breeder I was told not to let anyone pick first on a litter before you have screened the litter. You cull, give away as pets, sell first the pups that you think will not give fame to your kennel (for possible breeder purposes, you lease it to a trusted friend, family or have somebody take care and train the dog for you.) Remember..."Marry not only the good one in the Clan" a VA dog may not give VA progeny but his siblings may, thats why you have to keep track of the progeny. Politics is good because its really for marketting... There are only a few Siegers who did not leave Germany, and politics sometimes have to look outside of Germany and it bring back the bloodline, make it VA (but not sieger) so that the good genes are still being pooled (FOOLED) i can say... Germany will not give away its best dogs or else nothing will be left for GERMANY to SELL...
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