where have all the good, tough dogs gone? - Page 9

From a 'newbie's' perspective it seems that a lot of people don't want to wait for a dog to mature.  They want the flashiness of over the top prey drive at a young age and if a dog doesn't show that it's dropped by the wayside and probably those lines don't get bred.

My male has been a poster child for this.   I was seriously disheartened a back at the beginning of the summer when we started working him in protection because he showed no interest in prey.   It was ... hard, to stand in the face of pitying looks and people walking away and dismissing him.

Now after giving him some time to age and mature, getting hooked up with a helper who had more tools in his bag than 'prey, prey, prey' and just taking some time, he still has no interest in playing 'prey' with the helper but instead is hell bent on getting a piece of the guy who keeps invading his space.   He's still a young dog and there is a lot more careful work and time needed to build up this attitude but really, how many people out there want to take their time on a dog anymore?

"Anyone reading this thread and is in the market for a dog/puppy with this attribute, is coming away saying, wow, they are out there. But where? How can I guarantee that what I'm buying is really going to be a dog of this calibre? A dog with such confidence that it will not backdown from a threat? etc."

I can get you some names

Skocicka Samota , Jinopo, I have known, trained, seen, experienced, been bitten by these dogs... These are Czech Kennels. Very accesible and easy to get a dog from. Prices from 1600-2000 usd shipping included.
Skocika Samota traines, titles workes every single dog to the full potencial, She took 2nd with a female in the ZVV3 competition. She knows her dogs in and out. Honest person
Jinopo, knowlegable, knows dogs like the palm of his and.

Bojovnika, Melanie, humble smart and very succesful girl in my opinion. she knows her dogs, The trains them and triales them ans she is not stuck to a routine.
Mike Diehl, Nate/.. no comment necessary
Here is many more as good as them but you can do the research.

Alpine k-9 Hans knows his dogs.

What else?

DDR kennels, not very familiar with them there sayd. DDR dogs dissapointed me over and over.. Yah, nice big heads that take forever to develop some thinking and maturity. I like smaller dryer, compact dogs.

There is plenty of good breeders out there.

 I have a dog from Skocicka Samota  he is an 8 month old and I can agree with you he is excellent.  Great nerve, solid structure, good hips. I am very pleased with him. 

I'll add z Tancujucej Cesty to that list.

And, von der Eichenquelle Belgian Malinois also.

but really, how many people out there want to take their time on a dog anymore?
RLhar wrote the above.  This is exactly what I was saying.  He/she is taking a lot of time to train the dog, carefully.  Does this dog have this inate toughness that I'm thinking of?  I don't know.  I would say 95% maybe more, and I'm going out on a limb here, to say that most prospective purchaser of a dog isn't looking to go through all this hassle.  They want a tough, family dog first.  If the bug bites to do work, ie-schutzhund, ring, etc. then so be it.  Even then would they do the routines necessary to be titled?  That's not saying they can't but if you read the thread, a lot of these dogs might just not be good enough to do those lovely routines, etc., but come into the home and you see a different routine.....the mamba jaws!

I have spoken to a lot of trainers about all the fads on the Czech, DDR dogs.  Some are good, most are CRAP!  And I'm not talking about West German dog lovers, I'm talking trainers that own mals and or GSD's.  As a matter of fact to bequite honest, the Mals are what these guys are promoting as tougher.  These were hard nose GSD guys, but have moved on to a more "tougher" dogs.  Well, again, I love my GSDs and will not trade them, but in the same vein, it is this same issue that has directed these x-GSD lovers to other breeds.  Just because they can't find a good one. 

One negative response on the Nasherback ??? kennel, but if you are looking at titling dogs, then you just have to look at the last competion in Spain and you will see that the competition was dominated by these dogs!  The Orry, Yoshy, Fero/Grief/Gildo lines.  So what? are they tough dogs? Are they competition dogs?  Then if we are using the titles to measure or as a yardstick to measure toughness, which all you eastern european GSD lovers are, then where are the DDR and the Czech dogs?  Go to the other top level competition, then it is half and half mals and GSD's.  So guys, I don't care if they have the block heads, the dark sable colours, or the big bone....whoopti doooo!  Can't they live up to their noble structure?  or.....are you dog peddlers riding the wave....!!!!!   For you guys out there that this has struck a nerve....it is the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'s!

Firstly schutzhund should not be a spectator sport. Breeding blindly based on scores or videos will be the ruin of any breed. Schutzhund is test, basically a breed evaluation if you apply the theories behind it and learn how drives are presented in training you will be better able to evaluate what you want from a dog. (not saying that the ringsports won't do that as well) ...The notion that any dog will protect you without any training is crazy and the perpetuation of that fallacy is irresponsible. If you want a personal protection dog fine, but be involved with its training and do not take anyones word that the dog will protect you. A dog is at best a deterrent.
 
There are tough dogs out there but you really should be involved on more than just an internet level to find them. Look at Sean O Kanes dog Max a very tough dog.. Mike and Nate both have some excellent dogs as well, There are many more, look at club trials.. got some nice dogs in my club

My bottom line is 99% of people reallly want a dog with strong nerves and most of the people that say they want a "Bad Ass" dog would'nt know what to do with one if they had one. ...Careful what you wish for Jeff

I have seen tougher dogs that Shean's dog Max... but not in the top competition level. To me taking a tough dog and bringing it this high is a HUGE achievement!
It is a bitch to work with a strong dog! They have a mission on their own sometimes..LOL

Pack

Funny. Jeff mentioned someone who's dog I was thinking of when I was reading the talk of SchH and scores. Nate Harve's dog Stuka was constantly given the helpers pick at high level trials. I hear you guys bash the sport, but it doesn't take a genius to go to trials and pick the dogs that you like. Forget the scores. Go to a trial and watch all the dogs. Not all of them are point dogs.

I am the only one in the world today that I know of breeding the way of long ago, producing dogs as solid as Steel, as tough as nails, and with as much personality as Cheeze Whiz.

 LOL!