Has dog training actually improved. - Page 8

HD
I knew someone was going to come back with that re the general public
and their perception of what a normal trainer is doing.

I am sure you understand I wasn't referencing normal humane training 
methods, I'm talking about some of the brutal things that go on in any 
dog fancier arena. You know the ones, where people have to look around
to ensure there is no one watching etc.

OGBS, you may very well be correct in a lot of what you wrote above !  He is my personal companion dog, first-and-foremost, and a PP and estate protection dog after that.  When I say dominant, I mean absolutely fearless, aggressive (with high anger level) when tackling intruders (no pretend biting here !), high aggression level with non-submissive male dogs, genetically civil,  will not back-off from a threat etc....all of which are genetic and was present as a pup, and not moulded or "made" via training.....and single owner dog.   Even as a young pup, he strutted around adult dogs with his tail in the air.  He however can settle down totally, when there is no threat, and he is the favorite of the local kids - amazing how this volcano can be so calm among kids.  He is no "pet dog" by any means, assuming you mean the negative connotation that we typically associate with the term "pet dog" or "pet quality" etc.

I have a Czech female too, and I consider her one of the best watch/guard-dog that I have ever had, and she will aggressively tackle intruders and take them down if needed.  She is highly territorial too and tightly scrutinizes everything - man or animal - that comes into "her domain" but having said all of this, I would not call her a "dominant" dog at all.....even though she is not "submissive" by any means. The bi-color boy above is entirely different from that perspective.  Hope this explains what I meant by "dominant".

As far as "high-end" shutzhund type competition is concerned, I have zero interest in any of it, to be quite frank, even though I acknowledge that folks who are in it, have to do a LOT of hard-work to train their dogs and get them to a level where they can get titled.  Of course Workingdogz is going to take a very dim view of this one aspect, based on some of his prior posts !  I don't mind putting a herding title or something similar that is useful on my dogs, and am working on it.....with no e-collars ! . 

I used to think that clickers were a stupid gimmick...then I actually tried them out. They are a tool, a very useful tool. I don't use them for everything, but I use them for a lot of things, especially foundation work. I really like using them to work on focus, heeling, and body awareness. I have also used them during herding lessons for boundary work. Using a clicker does not preclude me from using my voice as a marker also...but the benefit of a clicker is that I never use that click noise for anything else, unlike my voice, and the sound is much more precise and consistent than my voice. It's just another way to communicate.

aakay wrote:

As far as "high-end" shutzhund type competition is concerned, I have zero interest in any of it, to be quite frank, even though I acknowledge that folks who are in it, have to do a LOT of hard-work to train their dogs and get them to a level where they can get titled.  Of course Workingdogz is going to take a very dim view of this one aspect, based on some of his prior posts !

And that is where you are wrong.
A dog that brings everything to the table genetically is an absolute breeze to train.
Dogs that bring it make even borderline mediocre trainers like me look GOOD
What is hard in the sport of schutzhund or any other working arena is, to take a dog 
that lacks the natural desire to work in any facet and put a title on them.

What is hard about the sport is the hours and miles one puts in to train and proof
exercises. And finally, to prove the dog meets and exceeds a set international
standardarized test.

It's very easy to sit back and talk about how superior ones dog is in their own backyard,
put some road miles on that dog, prove the dog is all you stack them up to be by breezing
through an easy thing like a working title, be it obedience, or schutzhund etc.
Christ, for easy as some people make it out to be, we should have one hell of a battle for
the podium at the worlds   Until one puts their dog out there to be evaluated by an 
impartial party (working trial judge), it's all just fluff.

As my buddy vom Eisenhaus says, "I am from Missouri, the Show Me State"   
I don't care who likes or dislikes the sport of schutzhund, I just find it rather annoying
that those whom tout what shit the sport is and what shit sport dogs are, usually are
the first to brag about their dogs being so great and low and behold if it it turns out
the dogs that these same people brag up in their  Super Fantastic dogs pedigree
are usually  TITLED SCHUTZHUND DOGS.  Don't you find that ironic?  

I would also rather prefer that before someone talk about how easily their dog
'could do schutzhund' or any other sport, well, that the very person touting that
would get out and do at least some type of title in the sport they claim their superior dog
could excel in. The same goes for the shit talking. Get out and  make just a SchH1, a CD etc
on your dog before you denigrate the concept of a working title. Then sit back and tell me
how simple it is,  and how the title means nothing.  I bet you don't. I bet you would be on
every message board around bragging about how your dog got his  ____ title.  
I bet you would learn a whole lot more about your dogs temperment and make up 
when you do this too.

Now back to the topic .... 

HD & WD - I've even had Jo Public tell me (on more than one
occasion) that having a headcollar on a dog was cruel.  Mainly
cos they think its a muzzle;  and muzzling a dog is cruel, isn't it !.

I take the point about ppl not wanting the world to see some of the
'behind the tent' methods they might use;  but for the rest of
us it would just be crippling to pay attention to what ppl in the
street might think, and let that stop us using any tools we need.

I don't use an E collar, and I very rarely use prong collars ...
heck, I almost never use check chains anymore.  But I don't
train at a 'high' level, and I would not rule out me or anyone else
from using any of those things with the right dog under the right
circumstances.

lol WORKINGDOGZ

For OGBS and Workingdogz to illustrate the effects of rubbing your feet on the carpet and shocking someone!  Enjoy





Poor Meg will never be the same, the affects of that shock will last for ever.  I bet she has an anxiety attack every time she sees carpet or feety Pajamas.  I can see it really freaked Brian out too, I hope he recovers.

Oh crap! Not poor Brian!!!
LMAO!

If a handler trainer is an ass and a pig to his dog, s/he nas no need for tools, s/he will find a way how to screw any dog up. (One needs  only a choke to crush the trachea and swift kick to a spleen to kill a dog)
If a handler is a good one, s/he can utilize whatever tools are out there to make the dog better.



(I removed some nonsence..lol)

Workingdogz, I am not denying the quantum of effort involved to put a ScHH title on a dog.  I personally might even brag that all of my female's grandparents are ZVV3 titled.......purely from the view that she comes from lines that have had the capability to be trained to take on some really high and sparingly awarded titles, than valuing the titles themselves.  But that does not mean that I have any interest in putting a sport title (herding titles excluded) on my girl or boy.

Even though I might brag on the the fact that my boy is closely line-bred on a "legend" who has put more participants on the WUSV team, and has single-handedly contributed the most to the Slovakian Policia kennels, I personally like the line-breeding that he has on Titus a LOT more, even though Titus has had nothing to do with WUSV participation.  Titus brings traits that I see in my boy, including his boldness and raw aggression (I LOLd when I heard the "pet dog" comment attributed specifically to him) and I value that way more than the massive WUSV participation of the resultant progeny of the "legend".

I hope you understand the above dichotomy in my thinking.  You don't have to agree with my view of course !