The German Sieger Show 2019 - Page 7

Finally, I don’t dislike the Black and Red Color for the GS. You still see some rare black and red colored dogs in WL ( though their genetic base and type is different).....but if we make allowances for the decline in function with false narratives, things will never improve! Personally, I like the Black and Red color, but not at the expense of low functional expectations.

I think you are in some denial about how bad and far removed from the breed standard the show lines have become and the role the SV plays in this problem. Both in temperament and structure. Regarding bonding, many top sport trainers basically kennel their dogs and bring them out to train. It is not like they are spending all this time bonding. The reason some competition dogs are sold is because they are lacking in some area and the handler wants a better dog, which speaks even more about the bonding from the handler's end. Not all people who compete in sport are like that. Tolerance to pressure improves by the dog having to work through the pressure and learning by staying in the fight or handling corrections isn't going to kill them. They either will or won't. A common mistake trainers make is to decrease the pressure, which reinforces the dog not pushing through because he learns that if he shows some avoidance, the pressure will be reduced, which is the opposite of what should happen. Of course, the pressure has to incrementally increased, but should never be decreased. The belief that show lines are not good enough as a working dog is no myth. The working lines are becoming sport lines with a subset of bloodlines suitable for work.

The German show lines are bred to be black and red, have a flying trot running around in the show ring, and have a specific conformation that actually interferes with the dogs' agility. Their performance in the protection phase of IGP is an embarrassment.

apple, I totally agree with this except for one thing. A flying trot is when an animal has all 4 feet off the ground. The German show line dog's structure has been so badly messed up that most of them are totally incapable of a correct trot. As any horse person will tell you, a trot is a two-beat gait, with diagonally opposite legs moving in unison. The show dog's rear is so exaggerated that the front end has to lift in order to give the rear legs time to complete their stride. The increased angulation of the pelvis also forces the drive upwards instead of forwards, increasing the lifting of the front end.

Get your hands on a copy of Linda Shaw's conformation book if you want to understand how this works.

Darn. Forgot you can no longer post pictures here...okay, here's my favourite picture of Rumor, showing her doing a flying trot: https://share.cat/the-top-dogs-at-westminster-2017/6

The photo is for illustration purposes only, and doesn't mean I support what's being bred for the American show ring, though she's definitely one of the nicer American dogs.

For a photo of your typical German show line gaiting, here's a link to a previous post I made on this same topic: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/community.read?post=834953-gorgeous-photo&p=3 

Sorry, I don't know the name of the dog, but you can see how the rear foot is going to touch down well before the front. 

Gustav - I quite agree with you. Function must come first.

Apple - I am fully aware of the failings in construction in the current dogs and, I do not like it. As a working breed the dogs should look the part and not be just pretty dogs. The Show Lines must, somehow, open up the genes to make the changes that are needed. The current situation opened up with Hermann Martin with the help of the SV. I do not see any change until Lothar Quoll steps down.

Mackenzie

Mack ... I enjoy reading your comments . There is validity in what you write . As a matter of fact ... when I read the posters' comments , I see truth in all of them . What I have found in the dog world , and most often in life , nothing is absolute and carved in stone. In all the commentaries that I have read in this thread in each post , there lies truth . BTW , I like that you recognize that the performance of the GS is as much dependent on the owner to make it all that it can be and all that it by it's nature is. A good owner /trainer can make or break his dog .

I have had more than 30 GSs in my life time . Some of the best of the best working lines and the best show lines in USA and also by European Standards too .[ currently I own one of the best blk/red males in North America ] I have been with German Shepherds since I was 10 years old ... and .. have seen the evolution of the breed . So I understand what all the posters mean to be saying well , and what they convey in their posts. Again I say , many of the posts in this thread have merit or some degree of merit . I also say that ,many posters , like yourself Mack , would be great to sit around with and to talk dog talk with a tall mug of German or Belgium beer .

Valk ... intersting your experiences that you share . What I did not add in my last post : some of the 160 lb Akitas that I have trtained .. they required no , absolutely no trainnig to defend . They had ingerent natural aggresion that you often talk about and they were formidable. Their paws were as big as my hands and thier heads as big or bigger than my head. You simply did not screw around with these dogs... The downside of this though was because of their innate nautral aggression as you wrote about , they were very very very difficult to control with your mind alone , which made them not the best choice for me to consider doing sport work . Yet it was a whole different experience to work with a dog that was so pre-programmed , so automatically predispositioned genetically to defend without any need of a green light. Again , I truly understand fully , why you write what you do and what you think about the current day GS compared to past years. ..... I enjoy reading your thoughts too

I worked for a breeder that had the Japanese Akitas. The male stud was pretty chill with people, but they would go after other smaller dogs, and nearly killed a corgi that got out of its kennel when they were being brought inside from the outdoor runs. One of the females became aggressive to the other Akitas once she reached 8 months of age, and had to be kept separated from them. She was okay with the stud, as long as there was no food around, though, but had to be fed separately.

They were difficult dogs to train to walking on a leash. They were strong, and had a mind of their own. You definitely needed a prong collar for training!

Mackenzie
with all due respect, what you're suggesting (The Show Lines must, somehow, open up the genes to make the changes that are needed) seems to me really doesn't make much of sense.
by the logic of natural evolution to progress the best available must be merged with at least a good, if another best is not available.
SL seems like already reached it's dead end. what will you achieve by diluting the best by the worst?
isn't more logical just to stop experimenting and let this failure quietly die out?

isn't more logical just to stop experimenting and let this failure quietly die out?

Valk, due to the vast amounts of money behind it, I doubt very much it's going to be dying any time soon. However, I do believe the ASL may be on the way out, as there are fewer and fewer dogs coming to shows, the population of people showing is aging, and no young people seem to be interested.

If you attend the obedience classes at ASL GSD shows, the GSDs being shown are (with a very few exceptions) not the ones you will see in the show ring. And I've been amazed at the number of OTHER breeds you will see in the OB ring at these shows!

I am just speaking from the Canadian perspective. Rik may have a different viewpoint.

I recently began following a bloodhound breeder on FB. The BH breed proves you CAN do both. Many of her dogs have had (or are having) successful careers as scent and trailing dogs for LE and SAR. She trials her dogs in both conformation and scent work, and is very successful at it.

GSD people need to take note, and stop making excuses... 

As usual we've taken videos about SV BSZS. 

The first is TSB test of 

VA1  1164  Willy vom Kuckucksland  Josephine Kao  Taipei 111  TW

 

 

On page three of this topic, someone mentioned the high cost of paying a professional handler to show these dog, the high price of pups from top winners, and the large sums paid for highly rated stud dogs. My understanding is that the money is in stud fees. If you have a BSZS champion or high placing dog, you could $1,000-$1,500 a stud fee and some of these dogs get over 100 breedings. They aren't even producing real GSDs IMO, so I don't see the problem fading away due to greed while not breeding for the betterment of the breed.