Strong sit and bark - Page 7

Know that for sure Judron?
I have no idea about Javier's specific bark and hold but at a seminar that his owners gave in Canada last spring, I was led to understand that they talked about shaping the bark and the hold with the ball. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, anyone....
I just give this example to illustrate that we can never really be sure of people's training methods, how they got their dogs to where they did and that sometimes we are too quick to judge a training method just because it makes no sense to us.
In my opinion, it is not going to distract from the strength of a particular dog if I know that he can do a hold and bark on a ball in a blind. If he then can do a hold and bark at the face of a strong helper at a World Championship, why is it wrong to teach the BEHAVIOR with a ball and strengthen it later by adding drives and a helper?

 Here is a Video of My 13 month old male Malinois. He is just starting the hold and Bark but he shows a nice level of agression and really works the man and not the equiptment. He has only had about 8 or 9 sessions of bite work total and is still young in my eyes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F84U_4WD9vQ

On another note I believe that Schutzhund dogs can also be police dogs, it all depends on the type of training that you do, and how the dog is brought up in protection work.

Changer....shaping the behavior to bark with a ball is different then hanging it in the blind. I don't believe they hang a ball in the blind from conversations I've had with people who train and visit them in Europe. I could be wrong....... You saw the ball in the blind at the seminar?

No matter how much barking a dog does for a ball....barking at the man is different and should draw a different type of bark from the dog.

"No matter how much barking a dog does for a ball....barking at the man is different and should draw a different type of bark from the dog."

I agree with Judron.  But if the training has always been done in prey and the dog does not view the helper as a threat?  I don't know if the bark would change all that much.  If training has not been done to make the helper an advisary or threat, why would the dog always revert to a deep dominance bark.

Now, if you teach a bark command for a ball, train the dog in some civil agitation (at the appropriate age), then combine the two.  Then you could see the difference in barking.

Kyle

I think we all have a gut reaction to the ball hanging in the blind. We want our dog's barking to be "real" and dominant, and threatening. And of course he can't be dominating a ball. So it makes a parady of the sport if a dog does a threatening bark on a ball in the blind, and then has that same bark on a helper. Again, it would be helpful to see Bart Bellon's dogs in trial.
I agree with you all, the dog SHOULD have a different bark with a helper, rather than just speaking for his toy. It is up to the helper to get aggression from the dog, but as a handler I can certainly teach my dog most of the actions associated with protection work, including barking. And if for a particular dog, that includes hanging the ball in the blind, then so be it. We might be talking about the difference between behaviors and drives.

 I read about an instructor for militarydogs that as I understood him used a clicker and treat for learn the dogs the barking, and then progressed to balls and similar, regardless if the dog was meant to be for service or sport. Apparantly many that train IPO/SCH was very suprised by that;)

How much is the barking in the blind really showing about the quality of the dog I wonder, does it really matter so much, and what does it show about a dogs "soul" in a situation that is beoynd the trainingfield and that particular exersize?

Here is a link to my malinois hold/bark. While Fado has several accomplishments, I wasn't that impressed with the barking in the video nor the guarding. At times the dog seems to slightly loose focus to the helper. But I did like the fight drive in the biting.

www.youtube.com/watch

 Quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlqcxcnPJHI (this ain't barkin for a ball)

No, it is barking for the sleeve.

Aggression is not what I am seeing here, or on many of the videos posted. I see frustration. The problem with the whole idea of "aggression" is that it is a fear based emotion, and most of the dogs you see here have been sent to the blind way to many times to feel anything like a threat.

Domination. That is a really bad read on what Mr Murphy or any of them are doing. They just want the damn ball/sleeve/reward. 

The reality is that people would rather live in the fantasy that their dog is being "powerful" "dominant" and "showing aggression" than the actual fact that the dog is frustrated, and has had his behavior shaped to fit a "look" or quite possibly just does so out of this frustration. 

How many times do we see training videos of the dog on a pinch being popped over and over to build that frustration ? Or do you still see it as aggression, when the actual aggressor is behind him ? LOL

My Dog Buko will look like he wants to eat you alive over a paper wad, lighter, whatever. Just tell him speak and all hell breaks loose. He has a low threshold for frustration. He centers on the decoy. I never taught him any of this he just does it. Is he a better dog than most ? Yes. So maybe that is your answer, a dog that has lower thresholds is just a better dog.

I always did wonder about a dog's temperament and the blind. I mean, if you've been sent into the blind 200 times and you haven't died yet, what is wrong with your temperament if you are still in "defense"? I mean face it, a little pinch collar and a little whip action is not enough to provoke defense in a stable dog.