Questions & answers about GSD structure/ conformation

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by Ibrahim on 30 December 2010 - 19:12

GSD Anatomy in 3D

by Ibrahim on 30 December 2010 - 19:12

by Ibrahim on 01 January 2011 - 18:01

Hi,

I think upper arm and shoulder blade were very well covered, but if anyone wishes to put more questions or add more info concerning these two elements is most welcome.

I have few questions regarding the rear evaluation, I know some look at a dog going (not only standing) to evaluate its rear
ist question: what do you look at and watch in the rear or rear movement?
2nd question: what do you like and what don't you in a dog's rear?
3rd question: If a dog standing looks somewhat cow hocked but when walking it goes straight, runs well with no clumsiness, how do you evaluate this dog.
4th question: What causes cow hocks?, is it a lengthy hook, weak hook joint or overangulated stifle?
5th question: Is the evaluation of the hook joints separate from the evaluation of the hooks themselves (rear pasterns)?
6th question: cow hocks is not a judge term, so what is the correct term, is it loose hooks? weak hooks? or weak hook joints?
7th question: what are the rear components that a judge writes down on a dog evaluation?

Thanks

by Rik on 02 January 2011 - 01:01

I'll keep playing:

“ist question: what do you look at and watch in the rear or rear movement?” I look for a good under reach and a fully extended finish to the stroke. Feet close to the ground.

"2nd question: what do you like and what don't you in a dog's rear?" I dislike cow hocks very much and consider it a serious fault. Over angulation, long tibia, and loose, wobbly hocks are also not good.

"3rd question: If a dog standing looks somewhat cow hocked but when walking it goes straight, runs well with no clumsiness, how do you evaluate this dog." If I had this in an otherwise good female, it would not prevent me from breeding her. I would never consider breeding to a male with this issue.

"4th question: What causes cow hocks?, is it a lengthy hook, weak hook joint or overangulated stifle?" Can't answer this, other than I have seen very over angulated dogs in the Am. s/l that are not cow hocked, either standing or moving.

"5th question: Is the evaluation of the hook joints separate from the evaluation of the hooks themselves (rear pasterns)?" (Ibrahim, it's hock, not hook or rear pastern). Also, it's not the joint that is evaluated, other than the angles formed. The hock should not be long, compared to the tibia.

"6th question: cow hocks is not a judge term, so what is the correct term, is it loose hooks? weak hooks? or weak hook joints?" I don't know of an “official term”.

"7th question: what are the rear components that a judge writes down on a dog evaluation?" Can't answer this. Faults I look for are the ones you mentioned, plus poor under reach, kicking up in the rear, not extending fully, locked hocks.

Hope this helps,
Rik

by sonora on 03 January 2011 - 01:01

Hi Ibrahim,

So far this is a very good thread, and an excellent learning opportunity for me,Thank you.

I agree with Rik,for I look for the similar points .Thanks Rik.

Here's what I do,
1st question: what do you look at and watch in the rear or rear movement?
Please clarify rear? If you are refering to the dog moving or going away from you,or
If you mean hind quarters it would include the croup?
I'd look for a strait line from hip to toe( a single column of support) any deviation at the joints is a fault.
The hocks must be parallel,and the joints must not move in or out.
I also look to see if the elbows are moving out.

2nd question: what do you like and what don't you in a dog's rear?
I like a strong, firm ,low, hocks .I don't like weak hocks.

3rd question: If a dog standing looks somewhat cow hocked but when walking it goes straight, runs well with no clumsiness, how do you evaluate this dog.
The G S D is a working dog and as such , it is evaluated after it has been put through it's paces.
Thats the reason for all the walking and running in a G S D show.If after all that your dog still stands true in the rear,its good otherwise its faulty.

4th question: What causes cow hocks?, is it a lengthy hock, weak hock joint or overangulated stifle?
Agree with Rik on this,could possibly be poor condition of mussles and ligaments with a long lower thigh.

5th question: Is the evaluation of the hock joints separate from the evaluation of the hocks themselves (rear pasterns)?
The hocks is part of the hind quarters,as such it is evaluated while standing and in movement.
Loose hock joints indicate weakness in the ligaments, while dogs that do not kick out (sickle hocks)
while gaiting,could be due to over angulation,a long lower thigh,high weak hocks.
6th question: cow hocks is not a judge term, so what is the correct term, is it loose hooks? weak hooks? or weak hook joints?
In G S D Critiques we often see the following:- "Going good/correct",or "Going close" or "Going wide"
I believe any term that describes the virtue or fault(weakness) correctly can be used.
7th question: what are the rear components that a judge writes down on a dog evaluation?
Hind angulation-Breath of thigh-Turn of stifle-Length of bones-Lower thigh bone-Hocks,
Strength of drive.etc

May we cover , "TYPE" as the next topic, just a though.

by Ibrahim on 03 January 2011 - 06:01

Thanks Rik, Thanks Sonora,

Okay I will put some questions about type but I believe I need few days to grasp all what you and Rik explained above as there is much to think of and verify with my dogs to make sure I understand all you said. It is too condensed info and facts, I never imagined that you look at and see all these things in the rear movement. So maybe you give us a couple of days to grasp all that, maybe I make some video clips as examples for rear evaluation, I think for you Rik and Sonora it is a granted thing by your long experience but for me it is huge.

Ibrahim

by Rik on 03 January 2011 - 22:01

hello Ibrahim, in the American show ring, gait is king. What I have presented is just elemantary knowledege and almost everyone I know or have been associated with knows these things and probably much more.

There are many (like Ken T.) who I know come here and could do a better job of explaining many things. Maybe some of them will choose to participate.

Whatever I think that the Am. s/l has become, there is still a lot of knowledge concerning anatomy held by these folks.

Rik

by Ibrahim on 03 January 2011 - 22:01

Rik & Sonora,

I have read all I found on the net regarding rear of a GSD, some I understood perfectly and with some other I find my self lost, in a day or two I will tell you where I'm still not confident.
Today I took some videos, by the way it tales about two hours to load a video on youtube. I will start with Erri od Roubenky, today and before I made the video he wasn't standing properly on his left front arm, it hurts him, he sometimes digs in the groung, so maybe that is why. In the video coming towards me he was, in running, placing his left front arm reaching ground infront of his right one, looks awful. Anyway here is the video, please do comment freely as I know my male will not be competing and won't be an international stud, lol, so it won't hurt him.
Rik, yes I keep typing hock wrongly, looks like I got used to that, I will keep reminding me to write it correct. And you won't like what you will see much especially with Orwell.

by Ibrahim on 03 January 2011 - 22:01

by Rik on 03 January 2011 - 23:01

hello Ibrahim, your dog looks ok in the rear to me. he seems to be throwing his left front out a bit (kind of a circular motion). maybe just an injury. rest him a few days and see if better.

As for Orwell, there are many dogs available to me, so I can be a little picky. I understand it is not the same for you in your country.

I do hope you continue. maybe a 100 years from now, your countrymen are quoting "Ibrahim".

Rik

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