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by Jenni78 on 11 December 2010 - 22:12
Tenmon, I don't think you understood Prager's post properly.
He meant he has kennels who happen to be full of such dogs, not that his dogs act like that in the kennel. He knows exactly what they're like outside their kennels, I am sure. ;-)
He meant he has kennels who happen to be full of such dogs, not that his dogs act like that in the kennel. He knows exactly what they're like outside their kennels, I am sure. ;-)
by Ibrahim on 11 December 2010 - 22:12
Wow Tenmon, are you tough or acting tough?, lol. I'm just kidding with you. Very interesting topic and some very excellent posts here.
Ibrahim
Ibrahim
by Gustav on 12 December 2010 - 03:12
I think most knowledgable people understand that to test a tough dog you need to do it in unfamilar territory. Also, there are plenty of dogs with high thresholds or high drive that are not as tough as they appear. I'm not sure a "line" of dogs is the best way to characterize this. I think that in strong litters you are going to get a dog maybe two, that is tough. Sometimes you can get a magic click between two dogs that may produce 3 or 4 tough dogs in a litter. But I think today tough dogs are more found individually than in lines for the most part. Breeders like Tiekerhook will probably produce a somewhat higher percent, still its the individual dog I think.JMO
by OGBS on 12 December 2010 - 08:12
Tenmon,
If you are looking for a kennel, you would have a hard time passing up Von Der Bosen Nachbarschaft.
After all, they are "from an Evil Neighborhood"!
If you are looking for a kennel, you would have a hard time passing up Von Der Bosen Nachbarschaft.
After all, they are "from an Evil Neighborhood"!
by darylehret on 12 December 2010 - 14:12
Except von der bösen Nachbarschaft hasn't produced anything in the last dozen years that I'm aware of.
by frankm205 on 12 December 2010 - 14:12
I don't think you are going to hear about many truly tough, street biting dogs simply because they are not being shown on the schutzhund field. They are in the breeders back yards, being kept for themselves. They are not going to compete because they would rather kill the helper than have a pretty full mouth grip. While I was in the Netherlands I saw such dogs, same with Czech and I'm sure alot of other places.
Territorial aggression is common and if a GSD dosen't at least have that than he is not worth his salt. IMO
I have seen and worked dogs on strange training places like forests and dark streets and had muzzle fights in strange buildings, but again they don't compete and so you will not see them....... Just so you know the real kicker here is back in their pedigrees of the one's that had pedigrees were some show lines!!! Go figure!
Another thing is I think some of these dogs are on Police departments and some if not most won't allow the handler to breed the dog. Lastly, alot of these tough dogs don't come with pedigrees. Without the sacred papers no one will buy them. Although in all my years I have yet to see a pedigree bite someone!
Territorial aggression is common and if a GSD dosen't at least have that than he is not worth his salt. IMO
I have seen and worked dogs on strange training places like forests and dark streets and had muzzle fights in strange buildings, but again they don't compete and so you will not see them....... Just so you know the real kicker here is back in their pedigrees of the one's that had pedigrees were some show lines!!! Go figure!
Another thing is I think some of these dogs are on Police departments and some if not most won't allow the handler to breed the dog. Lastly, alot of these tough dogs don't come with pedigrees. Without the sacred papers no one will buy them. Although in all my years I have yet to see a pedigree bite someone!
by Prager on 12 December 2010 - 15:12
Tenmon said:
But I will guarantee you that you take them somewhere unknown to them, strange area and come at them with a stick in an open athmosphere and I guarantee they tuck their tails between their legs and run.
What I am saying is that that dog in your yard was not in strange area as far as he was concerned. He was in his own territory, protecting his food - his "prey find". Thus you have not observed a that dog's reaction in the strange unfamiliar place. He was probably roaming around your garbage cans for most part of his life.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
But I will guarantee you that you take them somewhere unknown to them, strange area and come at them with a stick in an open athmosphere and I guarantee they tuck their tails between their legs and run.
What I am saying is that that dog in your yard was not in strange area as far as he was concerned. He was in his own territory, protecting his food - his "prey find". Thus you have not observed a that dog's reaction in the strange unfamiliar place. He was probably roaming around your garbage cans for most part of his life.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Jenni78 on 12 December 2010 - 15:12
Frank, I don't know who you are but I like you. 
You are 100% right in your post, right down even to your statement about the "showlines" in these dogs' pedigrees, way back (of course they weren't really the "sl" we're familiar with now but that's a whole 'nother thread). They are out there; they just aren't competing in sports. IMO, this has to do with the alteration of the sport from a pass/fail test of temperament to a competition, and thus, dogs have themselves been altered to excel in such sport. Neither here nor there, but just a statement of fact as I see it. Many will disagree (some just for the sake of disagreeing;-)) but I firmly believe this is because we're now breeding dogs to excel at sports instead of breeding dogs who will pass a temperament test or breedworthiness test, which is more what SchH was intended to be at its advent.
You are 100% right in your post, right down even to your statement about the "showlines" in these dogs' pedigrees, way back (of course they weren't really the "sl" we're familiar with now but that's a whole 'nother thread). They are out there; they just aren't competing in sports. IMO, this has to do with the alteration of the sport from a pass/fail test of temperament to a competition, and thus, dogs have themselves been altered to excel in such sport. Neither here nor there, but just a statement of fact as I see it. Many will disagree (some just for the sake of disagreeing;-)) but I firmly believe this is because we're now breeding dogs to excel at sports instead of breeding dogs who will pass a temperament test or breedworthiness test, which is more what SchH was intended to be at its advent.
by Elkoorr on 12 December 2010 - 15:12
He is dominant, hard headed, territorial, possessive, wants to fight all the time, has lots of power and strength, shows agression, and always wants to have the last word. Guess Jenni sold me a tough dog...LOL
by frankm205 on 12 December 2010 - 16:12
Thank You Jenni
Exaclty, it's all about the $ when you really look into it, and that's another thread too! There are good strong dogs out there for sure. Some lack the fancy pedigrees, looks, and are not highly marketable. How many would breed to such a dog with no pedigree, but excells at all other aspects, like work ability, hips, structure etc...?
Exaclty, it's all about the $ when you really look into it, and that's another thread too! There are good strong dogs out there for sure. Some lack the fancy pedigrees, looks, and are not highly marketable. How many would breed to such a dog with no pedigree, but excells at all other aspects, like work ability, hips, structure etc...?
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