Cookie training vs Correction training... - Page 7

No, not at all.  I was strictly speaking to Diane Jessup. 

Oh good.

You know, the ironic thing about the rescue org that "fired" me [and then attempted to blacklist me in the area] was that after I stopped working with the Rott-mix, they took him to Ron Pace [a strictly compulsion, very heavy-handed trainer].

Three years later, the dog STILL hasn't been adopted.

[If anyone wants a Rott/Shep mix with a shitton of prey drive, let me know.]

This is the thread I was talking about regarding Diane Jessup's loaded questions to Vickie about her new dog:
    http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/406285.html?pagen=1

Ok guys, crate up! : )

I think we all need to take a break and come back refreshed.  We were doing pretty good there, for quite a while. 

As I posted over inthe Shiloh thread just now, I understand that some folks aren't as comfortable discussing training theory as others. And that others (not often, but now and then) misunderstand and think I am saying ALL trainers who don't use positive are "cruel" which is, of course, silly, as almost all of us oldsters started out with compulsion training and weren't "cruel" people. 

To be perfectly CLEAR:  I don't think (don't know,  but don't think) Doberdoodle, or Mudwick, or Sueincc are "cruel" people.

I DO think that there is a place for discussion of methods without people getting upset. (I sure as hell don't mind being called a cookie trainer, Doodle, that's what I am!!!)  : )

 I DO think there is a HUGE need for discussion among trainers about public perception, and what to do WHEN PETA and other groups start moving in.  I do know for a fact there is a guy in NJ who is trying to get prong collars outlawed in that state - as a matter of record I oppose him.  I have and do use prong collars in certain situations, so iti s just silly for people to keep acting like I don't think a dog can use a well timed correction now and then, just like a child - I just don't happen to believe (for myself) that correction is what I want to base my relationship with my dog on.

OK!?

And, Doodle, I 100% agree,and tried to be REALLY CLEAR about the fact that the method I use works for ME! I don't think I would try it with the public, as I stated. But hell, I don't think half the public should have dogs either! ; )  You, as a professional trainer who has to turn out a product (trained dog) in a reasonable time, which will work with an untrained owner are in a VERY DIFFERENT situation than I.  Just wanted to make that clear.

Hey, randomly... I'll be posting a video of the dog's newest behavior for the aforementioned trick contest.
I'll have to cross-post here.

Super!

You spineless treat slinger!   If you can't crank and yank a dog into submission you are WEEEEAAAKKK.

LOL, jk, ok anyway...

I am pretty passionate about advocating my BALANCED method of training.  There is enough mis-information out there from zealot trainers who SLAM any other method, there's a website saying "Don't do a board and train because those trainers use punishment-based methods," and making my clients feel ashamed enough to have to buy pinch collar covers because they got YELLED AT by some crazy person on the street!!! 

I want to believe most pet owners have the common sense to avoid the harsh crank/yank/choke/kick trainers, if you love your dog you know what feels wrong, the only ones who seem to submit their dogs to harshness are either violent themselves or just desperate b/c they think an aggressive or large dog "needs those methods."  Diane, I sent you a video of something that made me sick, yet people accept it because they think it's the only way with a mean Pit.

The trend towards "100% positive never say no" zealots should alarm us all.  It's a fad.  Try raising your kids that way, never imposing your will or saying no, and see how they turn out.  Just humor me here-- Say your child is running around a restaurant and you say "Billy, please come here and sit down."  He does not listen, so you physically take his hand, lead him over and push his shoulder down and say "Sit down and stay here," well you've just used compulsion and you're not a positive parent.  You should have instead offered him a piece of candy if he chose to sit down.  And if candy didn't work, raise the reward to ice cream.

What's happening is 1) dog owners giving up on training b/c the methods are ineffective and have low control of the dog, the dog is relegated to the yard or house forever, 2) Dog owners giving up their dogs, and 3) dog owners settling for less!  I feel like there's no standards--  There are businesses in my area, and I've seen enough of their "product" to know what it is, ok yeah and I was a trainer at both PetSmart and Petco in the past, I used to pass out anon. survey cards and all my clients were happy, yet their dogs usually SUCKED.  I had to train only by the PetSmart manual.  It amazes me how low pet owner expectations are.  Now, the biz I have now people have much higher expectations but I would too for paying 1000+.  I believe people should expect more, they should expect their dog to be responsive and listening.

Just to give a typical example of "standards".  Client calls and says she wants some off-leash training, she told me she's been through Puppy, Beginner 1 & 2, then Advanced class at a training facility (not Petsmart, a training facility).  She says the dog did excellent and was at the top of its class.  She just wanted to fine tune things off-leash.  Ok, cool.  She arrives with the dog on a harness pulling her through the door, the dogs nose is everywhere, lunging around, and her major problem is the dog does not come when called.  Sort of Shiba Inu mix, and not so hot on food.  I ask her to demonstrate what the dog does, beginning with heeling around.  She pauses "Umm, we didn't learn heel."  Really, hmm.  But the dog can "give paw" and all sorts of odd commands like "lets go" "wait" and "stop".  Ok, then just show 3 sits and 3 downs?  Nope.  No control of the dog whatsoever.  The good thing is the dog was friendly.  Ok, end of page, I type faster than I can talk 80 wpm!!

Kids run around and behave like little assholes in restaurants because they want attention.  Period.
The parents that go over and take them by the shoulder and get engaged in a power struggle with them, are inadvertantly reinforcing the behavior.

Misbehavior is caused by one thing, and one thing only:  a desire for attention and belonging.  Its hardwired into them.  The misbehavior arises because they have mistaken beliefs about how to gain attention and belonging. 

If you want to read a fantastic book about parenting, I strongly suggest Positive Discipline by Jane Nelson.  www.amazon.com/Positive-Discipline-Revised-Nelsen-Ed-D/dp/0345402510

As for the guy trying to outlaw pinch collars.  Frightening intolerance.

Here is a group that scares me, They use the word "guardian"  & show this awful graphic photo of "pinch collar injury" http://www.ipdta.org/what-is-abuse.html  As if it were typical. I'm sure I can find a dog with abrasions on its face from wearing a Gentle Leader, or a dog obese from treats, but why would I do that.

Victoria Stillwell scares me b/c I think she is an idiot.  And so are her followers,  http://www.positively.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=672&start=0  Worst combination, self-righteous AND stupid.

Just watch this video Victoria Stilwell and her opinion not just on shock collars, but BASHING the trainers who use them, http://animal.discovery.com/videos/its-me-or-the-dog-shock-collars.html  Ugh, if I made that disgusted judgemental face and tone to my clients I would not even have any clients.   I think it's fine to say you don't like to use e-collars (I don't like them), or it's not appropriate to your dog, but she calls it "perverse" and "disgusting" to use one.  If you want to talk about PUBLIC PERCEPTION, this lady represents dog training to millions of people.  She's a television personality and I've seen her do/say enough idiotic things on her show to know she's full of it.  She has followers like a cult, and they celebrate every victory of an article that comes out bashing Cesar Milan.  They even wrote harassing a company that used him as a spokesperson, telling everyone to boycott.  Well where's the balance here-- I want to see some articles bashing Stilwell for a change, seems only fair.  There are "I hate Cesar Milan" websites and online groups, this shows their vitriol.  So where's ours?  It must be balanced out with someone speaking from the other side, saying different methods can work, too.  I'm not saying support Cesar, but realize these two individuals have been POLARIZED in the public's eyes, and he unfortunately represents the other side of the spectrum.

I HATE this type of comments "If I wouldn't use it on myself or your child, then why would i use it on my dog."  Someone said this to me, like they drew no distinction between a dog and a child?  I replied "Ok, then you put your child in a cage and teach it to shit outside,"  That was snide of me, but the real reason I hate it is because it draws no distinction between people and animals.  And that's exactly what the AR zealots and abolitionists want.

Oh god, I can't fucking stand Victoria Stillwell.
The woman uses fear aversion training constantly.  And then has the audacity to blast the correct use of a variety of training tools.